Henry BB 357 steel carbine - ? on cast bullet design

[Michiganshooter]

Plans are that I'm downsizing calibers and rifles and then getting a Henry 357 and 45 LC. I have finally decided on starting with the 357 and after much inner debate/drooling/decision wavering, I've decided to try one of the BB steel carbines in 38/357 and after I see how I like the carbine - get the same or possibly go with one of the rifles in 45 LC.

I only shoot cast - have cast for 50+ years and am an experienced reloader. While I normally shoot 38 special, I've decided to just use 357 in the carbine and the Uberti 357 Bisley which will be it's "soul mate" - not planning on loading heavy or max - but trying to develop a load that will shoot satisfactory in both for general plinking and can and varmint killing. That said . . . .

I need some input from those who have either the Henry BB 38/357 carbine or rifle. You read a lot on the net - all of it true of course. I haver run across posts on numerous sites where the poster says they have trouble with a lead SWC feeding in a 357 lever gun - others say it works fine. I'm sure they are aren't referring to Henrys but other brands as well.

I plan on using 158 grain - normally I tumble lube in alox/paste wax and have no issues with leading in my 30-30 or 8mm Mauser rifles with that lubing process as long as I keep them around 1200 fps or so, so I'm not expecting any real leading problems in the 38/357 Henry if I don't push them hard. Currently, I use the Lee 358-158 tumble lube design SWC - accurate out of my 38s and 357 handguns.

So - will this SWC, if loaded to correct COAL feed and cycle in the Henry O.K. or would it be better to go with a RNFP 158 design? I've been thinking about ordering a 2 cavity Lee in 358-158 RNFP design to try - for $20 for the mold is it worth it to have the RNFP or will the SWC feed O.K.in the Henry? I'm on the list for a special run of the NOE 360-160 FNRP mold over on Cast Boolit but it will take a while to get enough to sign up for it before Al is going to run the molds. I can always sell the Lee RNFP after I get the NOE but if the Lee 158 SWC will function and feed O.K. in the Henry, I'd stick with that until I get the NOE mold? I should also mention that melee 358-158 SWC (tumble lube design) mold usually drops them at a fat .359 so they should be just fine in relation to the Henry's .358 bore. The, what I consider the minimal cost, of the Lee 358-158 RNFP mold is not an issue but if the SWC will cycle and function OK in the Henry, I'd forget about a RNFP until the NOE molds are run.

As a side note, on the BB steel carbine - I called the LGS where I usually deal as I'd like to get it there - but - they came back with a price of $749.99 + tax which would end up at $799 out the door. I checked with Bud's and their price was $658.00 and then the FFL transfer fee of $45 form the FFL on my end for a total of $703 - and since Buds is out of my state - no sales tax on this end. As much as I believe in supporting the LGS - BUT - the difference of $96 will pretty much cover the Skinner sights or go towards a scope if I decide to go that route. So . . . I guess I'll be buying "on-line" sight unseen but I have confidence that the Henry will be a good carbine and if there should be something that shows up, Henry will take care of it.

Thanks for the input ahead of time in regards to how SWC design lead works/cycles in the 38/357 - loaded in 357 brass.

[BigAl52]

To be honest with you, you will just need to try it. Some do some don't. I would just load up a few dummy rounds and give it a try.

[Rifletom]

I think you may be better off with 158/RNFP. As Al said, some do, some don't. In my BB brass .357, the SWC's fed ok, but, RNFP feed flawlessly. As far as ordering thru Bud's, that is how I bought my Henry .45 Colt. No issues what so ever. And those BB steel look even better in person than pictures. that .45 Colt has become my favorite rifle to load for and shoot.
Like you, I started thinning the herd a bit as I no longer hunt deer or Elk. The lever rifle's are simply a hoot.
Just a side note: What powder do you use in .357?

[Mistered]

To be honest with you, you will just need to try it.

Ditto this^ - MY BBB .357 feeds SWC flawlessly but not all rifles do regardless of manufacturer.

[220]

I dont think you will have any trouble with the Lee TL SWC I would almost class it as a RNFP more than a conventional SWC design.
It feeds fine through my marlin

[Vaquero]

No help on the 357 as mine is different manufacturer, but
both my 41 BBS, and 44 BBB will both feed the SWC's without a problem.

RP

[clovishound]

My Henry eats 158 grain SWCs just fine.

[Michiganshooter]

Thank you everyone – greatly appreciate your input and experience.

My initial goal is to get a moderate 357 load that will work well in both my Uberti 357 Bisley with 4 ¾” barrel and the Henry BB Carbine.

While I have loaded lots of 38 Colt Short, Long and 38 Special, my experience with the 357 is “limited”. I have a 357 Handi rifle and I’ve put everything from 38 Colt Short through 360 DW casings through it (these are notorious for deep throats but I have never reamed it to 357 Max and probably will never do it).

I have a 1,000 + 1 X fired 357 casings on the way from a fellow that I have purchased brass from for quite some time – will segregate head stamps and if necessary, trim to uniform length.

As already suggested, I’ll load some dummy rounds with the Lee TL-358-158 SWC when I get the carbine and see what will cycle. I think I’m going to get a box of 358-158 lubed RNFP from snscasting to try as well until Al gets the group buy 360-160 RNFP group buy run and then will just cast my own.

I’m not looking to push them hard – just a good light to moderate plinking load for distances out to 50 yards or so.

I normally keep Bullseye, Unique and Red Dot on hand. When powder was short and the shelves empty, I even added Green Dot. At one point, I lucked in to a 8 lb jug of Red Dot so I have a very ample supply of that and will try it in the 357 and see the results. In my 7 ½” Uberti 45 LC Cattleman, I have tried all four of the above powders and I still kept going back to Red Dot as I got the best results from it – now I use it in just about all my pistol cartridges and am very satisfied with the accuracy.

I know a lot of folks like Unique . .. and some use 2400 which I have never used. At some point I”ll pick up a pound of 2400 and give it a try but to begin with, I’ll use what I have on the shelf.

I have gone through all of my manuals and have found load data for Red Dot and Unique for a 158 grain SWC (358-156) and RNFP – so I’ll start with those two powders first.

Red Dot

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook – 1st Edition – page 192

“Note: Also for target load use 5 gr Red Dot at 1045 fs (my note – this would be out of a pistol length barrel).”

Skeeter Skelton who was a well known “357 reloader”, in the mid 1960’s wrote an article and in it he listed:

“.357 Medium Loads

Lyman 158 gr. 357-446 – 5.0 Grains Red Dot – 1000 fps” (My Note out of a pistol length barrel) NOTE: The Lyman 357-446 is listed as a 162 grain LSWC. As with most cast bullets, weight will vary a few grains depending on the make-up of the alloy and individual mold.

Given these two sources, both listig 5.0 grains as a “target” and “medium” load with a 158 gr. cast LSWC or FPRN, I will probably start my loads at 4.5 grains of Red Dot and work my way up in .1 grain (1/10th grain) increments until I find a load that will work well in both guns – I see no “max” for either source so will consider 5.0 grains as max and see if I can find something that works well in both guns – keeping close attention to any possible “squibs” should one occur but I am not anticipating any with 4.5 + grains of Red Dot.

Unique

Unique seems to be listed in most of my manuals for the 158 grain lead bullets.

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook – 1st Edition – page 192 lists the following for the Lyman 358-156 lead SWC

“Unique – 6.0 gr. – 1210 fs”

Skeeter Skelton lists the following:

“Lyman 158 gr. 358-156 – 5.3 Grains Unique – 900 fps” (My Note: out of pistol length barrel)

I am thinking that I will probably start with 5.0 grains of Unique and work my way up in .1 grain increments. In looking at various threads and posts on different forums, as well as looking at published date – I know that the “max” for Unique in 357 “varies”. I am not looking for “hot” loads so will not be approaching “published max loads”.

Bullseye

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook – 1st Edition – page 162

For the 158 grain 358-156 LSWC, they include this note under “Moderate Loads Only”:

“Use 3.5 grs. Bulseye maximum.”

Skeeter Skelton lists:

“.357 Light Loads

Lyman 170 gr. 358-429 – 3.5 Grains Bullseye – 850 fps”. (My Note: out of pistol length barrel)

I haven’t decided yet if I will try Bullseye or not even though I have it on hand. In my other experimenting with pistol cartridges as well as 30-30 and 8 X 57 Mauser with lead bullets loaded for mild charges, the difference between Bullseye and Red Dot, for me, have been minimal and the Red Dot seems to do a better job. Both are fast powders and if I can’t achieve what I want with Red Dot or Unique, then I’ll give 2400 a try.

2400

Just for information sake –

Skeeter Skelton lists the following:

“.357 Moderate Loads

Lyman 158 gr. 358-156 – 13.5 Grains – 1200 fps (My Note: out of pistol length barrel).

For the Lyman 158 grain 358-665 – my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook – 4th Edition – page 259 lists:

2400
starting load 12.2 grains – 1156 fps
maximum load 13.5 grains –1343 fps

If I decide to pick up a pound of 2400 I would use a lower “starting load” and work my way up to insure I wouldn’t be getting leading in either the revolver or the carbine.

As a side note – I’m not a “high tech” caster. I usually buy “range lead” for casting for cartridge. I like to have the bullet .001 to .002 oversize if possible. My Lee mold drops the TL 358-158 SWC on the fat side so it has ever been an issue. If I decide to buy 500 of the158 grain RNFP that are lubed they will be sized .358. It will be a case of “try ‘em and see”, but I think they will be fine.

I’ll also be starting out using standard pistol primers. They have always worked fine for the 357 and 360 DW I’ve loaded for my 357 Handi Rifle and I can’t see any real advantage for using magnum primers.

Just thought I’d share this info and again, thanks for the input and information you all provided. If anyone sees an eero in my post or my thinking - please advise. Thanks.

[JEBar]

it appears certain that you have a clear plan of action .... looking forward to following your reports as you work your plan

[220]

it appears certain that you have a clear plan of action ..

It certainly does

The Lee 158TL swc is perfect for the low tech caster. Both the 2 & 6 cavity I have throw a little oversize, I have shot 1000's cast from range lead, simply lubed with LLA and loaded unsized. I use one of our faster Aussie ADI pistol powders and pushed at around 800fps from a 6" S&W 686 they will consistently put 10 shots under 2" at 25m and similar at 50m from my marlin. I can get some leading depending on the range lead.

I use standard primers in everything apart from full house loads with magnum pistol or fast rifle powders.

[Ojaileveraction]

Looks like you are quoting all handgun velocities.
Your rifle will add 3-400 fps to that.
Hornady has 9.3g 1200 for 158g xtp at 1200fps.

[Michiganshooter]

Yes - everything I quoted were indeed handgun velocities. I figured that I would probably pick up around 300 fps or so out of the rifle (carbine 16" barrel) so that's why I want to start lower in grain weight (powder) and see if I can't hit a happy medium with a cartridge that will work decently in both the 4 3/4" Uberti Bisley and the henry carbine. I'm planning on using B cast and I don't really want to gas check so I need to keep the fps down to prevent leading in the Henry - the Uberti Bisley I'm not so worried about in regards to the leading. I don't have a chronogrph - I'm shooting PB cast in my Winchester 94 Ranger 30-30 and figure I'm getting about 1200 fps and I have no leading problems and about the same out of my old 1907 GEW98 Mauser in 8 X 57.

Since I'm looking at mild to moderate loads, with the carbine producing the highest velocity, I'm thinking that it will dictate the load pretty much and then it will be a matter of seeing how the Uberti dows with the load. The Uberti Bisley has always shot well with what I've feed it and since I have shot SA for 50 + years, I'm guessing that I can tweak the load to work for both and if anything, I'll have to change my sighting of the SAA for the Poi - some hate it when a handgun doesn't have adjustable sighs but I have always found the sometimes primitive sights on SA revolvers to be part of the fun in learning how the revolver shoots and where to aim for various loads. Windage wise - my Bisley shoots very well (if I do my job) but elevation wise with a new load can be a learning experience.

[BigAl52]

Ive used Red dot in 357 and its been good. I dont shoot much lead just because Im tired of the clean up and I just dont want it around. I use mostly plated and bullets made by Zero for range work. There priced real close to cast and shoot very well. Because I have so much HS-6 my current load is using that with a Zero 158gr HP bullet. There are many powders that will work with 357 it just all depends on what your gun will like.

[Rifletom]

Michiganshooter, in .357, I use 158gr LRNFP coated and either 10.5-11.0gr Alliant 2400. Same bullet, only using Unique, it's 5.0-5.3gr. When I rarely shoot jacketed[Hornady XTP], it's 12.5gr 2400. Usually it's the LRNFP. Check my loads for reference. OAL is 1.580".
In .45 Colt, it's one load: 250gr LRNFP, 8.0gr Unique. OAL is 1.570"-1.575". Again, please check for reference.

[2guns]

I started casting 158 go for my gp100. Pistol has never seen any bullet but cast. For my Henry I ordered a 180 grain mold from NOE. Usually casts out 185 grain at .362 and I size to .360. 9.5 Grains of HS6 with this bullet sure does pack a punch. And super accurate also. I hope to get a deer this fall with this swc. NOE makes some great molds. Stands behind them with a good warranty also. For plinking I do run the 6 cavity Lee 158 mold and lube with Carolina blue. I don’t think my straight wall calibers run anything but cast.