muzzel velocity-round accuracy 45-70

[BigAl52]

I did some Youtube research on the 45-70 Henry before I bought mine. As I said I love the brass and have several brass big boys in pistol calibers. But when I went for the king I chose the CCH. And I really like the CCH also they look really good. But me and that recoil pad on my 45-70 have become close friends . Al

[Dadio63]

Greetings All,
I think I have found a good powder/projectile combination that works for me, and one I hope will help me fill the freezer with meat.

At the range today I tried my newest hand loads. Of the 4 new loads tested, one was unmanageable (for me) due to excessive recoil. I only fired three of those off, and got scope bit twice. The remainder of those rounds will be disassembled and reloaded to my new favorite.

The loads in order of preference were:

1.) 30g IMR 4198, 405g LRNFP (Missouri Bullet Company, #1 Buffalo).
This round produced the easiest to handle recoil, while shooting three groups of three rounds each:
1.) 2 3/8” diameter group
2.) 1 7/8” diameter group, and
3.) 1 7/8” diameter group.
Target was posted at 100 yards. Shooting from a rest with bags, 3-9x 40mm scope. Estimated muzzle velocity was 1370 FPS. ( not verified in the field, taken from the Hogden page, Trapdoor loads, “The Complete Reloading Manual for the 45-70 Government”)

30g IMR 4198, 405g LRNFP, 100yds, 1370 FPS.

B874175A-BA74-41AF-82F7-686BD9BBA036.jpeg (236.14 KiB) Viewed 3774 times

The next load shot a looser group, wasn’t able to keep it together, although the recoil was not too bad:
32g IMR 4198, 405g RNFP. Estimated (from manual) muzzle velocity of 1462 FPS.

The third load shot a decent group, 4 rounds in a 2 3/8” circle.
40g H4895, 405g LRNFP. Estimated (from the manual) muzzle velocity of 1424 FPS. Recoil was not too bad here either.

The fourth load was a problem:
48g H4895, 405g LRNFP. Estimated (from the manual) muzzle velocity of 1645 FPS. I will NOT be using this load again.

I also received on Saturday my ShockEater recoil pad and shirts.
https://gampsports.com/product/shockeater-recoil-pad/

For those out there looking for a little relief, this was a big help. The pad fits into a pocket inside the shirt. No more walking around the range with a harness and pad strapped to your torso.

I removed the temporary Limbsaver slip on recoil pad I had used previously, and just shot with the ShockEater and brass butt plate. This shortened my exaggerated length of pull to where it should be (the ShockEater is thin, maybe less than 1/4” thick)

Any opinions out there concerning my new load, 30g powder, 405g LRNFP, 1370 FPS being used as a hunting round?

With more practice, I think I can tighten my groups up to get a predictable point of aim, point of impact.

[JEBar]

I think I have found a good powder/projectile combination that works for me, and one I hope will help me fill the freezer with meat.

Any opinions out there concerning my new load, 30g powder, 405g LRNFP, 1370 FPS being used as a hunting round?

not surprised at your findings, it should be one heck of a hunting round ..... as noted in the link in my first comment in this thread, HSM's Cowboy Action ammo with 405 gr - Round Nose Flat Point bullets - with a muzzle velocity of 1300 fps - delivering 1520 ft lbs of energy have proven to be extremely accurate in our Henry 45-70 .... I'm getting ready to work on a similar load using 300 gr Nosler Ballistic Silvertips .... if I can come up with an accurate load developing 1300 to 1400 fps, it should have an even lighter recoil

[Ojaileveraction]

Good shooting dadio.
Your favorite load is one of my favorites also.

[Dadio63]

JEBar,
I based my search for a powder/projectile combination based on your recommendation!

I found a comparable load in the manual, checked the HSM Cowboy Action load specs and found they were very, very close so went with the manual load ( lightest load in the Trapdoor category on that page).

Now we just have to develop our shooting skills to meet the rifle and rounds capability...I do not want to be the “weak link” in this equation.

Thanks for your help and input!

[JEBar]

kind words appreciated, happy to be of some assistance .... the fact is, in the real world most of us are the weak link and, as you note, its up to us to strengthen that link as much as is possible ....

[North Country Gal]

Any opinions out there concerning my new load, 30g powder, 405g LRNFP, 1370 FPS being used as a hunting round?

That's almost identical to the very traditional Trapdoor 45-70 load, such as the Remington factory 405 grain loads we discussed. The Remington factory load has an excellent record as a hunting load within a reasonable range. As I mentioned, earlier, the Remington load in my Contender carbine is also an accurate load as well as one I can manage as far as recoil.

Also not surprised that 1600 fps load started to bite. 1600 fps is where the 45-70 gets uncomfy to shoot for me, too.

[Frontiersman]

The trouble with debating velocity of the .45-70 is like any other. We tend to focus on muzzle velocity, but it's the velocity on impact that determines bullet performance. And, of course, that all depends on the distance we are shooting at our target. Historically, the .45-70 has been used at 100s of yards with big slow bullets with great success. Todays short range jacked high velocity loads are a whole nether science.

Personally, I don't worry much about expansion with the .45-70. You are already making a .458 hole with a blunt bullet. It leaks plenty on both ends, whether you use up all that energy after it passes through or not.

It's when using small caliber bullets, that I feel we need to wring every last drop of energy into the animal. It's just two different schools of thought.

The .45-70 is devastating without all that speed.

[Dadio63]

North Country Gal,
I also looked up the green box Remington loads you suggested, and they do fall right in line with the Cowboy action loads, and they are way more comfortable to shoot than those big ass hunks of lead traveling at 1600+ FPS,kind of like you said earlier.

Frontiersman,
I’m a rookie at reloading, and do not own a chronograph or Labradar (Doppler radar chrono), so felt recoil is my benchmark. I have found through painful trial and error that when the projectile (no matter what size/weight) reaches around 1600fps, I stop having fun squeezing the triggeer, kind of like what North Country Gal mentioned earlier.

I have yet to see the effects a 405 grain lead, round nose flat top projectile will have on an animal, but am tuning up my rifle, load of choice and my own shooting skills for a boar hunt scheduled for this December in Texas with my sons.

I have a feeling that if I do my job ( sight alignment, sight picture B.R.A.S.S) I will have the opportunity to see what kind of response my chosen load will have. I don’t think any hog is going to know the round was only traveling 1300fps, but my shoulder will thank me.

[Pitchman1968]

Hey Dadio, I haven't pulled up this forum since late June, so, but this is to share with you my .45-70 shooting experience. First, a disclaimer, although I own 3 Henry rifles, my .45-70 rifle is a 1895 Marlin CB - - 26" barrel, 10 round capacity, and unloaded 2 lbs. is lighter that your Henry. The Marlin's 26" barrel probably gives me a 75 - 100 fps. velocity increase over your rifle; beyond that, there isn't much difference between the 2 guns as far as performance goes. Stick with IMR 41 powder. I have used 5 different powders and IMR 4198 gives me consistent velocity, accuracy, and a totally manageable thump to my 75 year old right shoulder. I use an Uncle Mike's pull-on recoil pad. I use Starline brass and never have had a cracked case. I toss the brass after a dozen reloads. After loading 8 different types and bullet weights, I now shoot only 405 gr. Oregon Trail Laser Cast bullets. I apply gas checks to the bullets. Here is the reloading recipe: 35 Grains IMR 4198, Win LR primers, OT 405 gr bullet seated to an COAL of 2.580" with the bullets just toucging th rifleing. Results at 100 yard benchrest shooting: Velocity - 1475 fps, 2 - 3' groups. Lastly, 3 years ago after my opthamogist told my I was forming small cateracts, I had a Leupold VX-2 scope mounted on the rifle which enables me to stay in the 10 ring out 175 yards

[tarbe]

When I am shooting a heavy kicker off the bench (my heavy is a .470 Nitro Express and my semi-heavy is a 450-400 Nitro Express) I make sure I am as upright as possible so my upper body can move with the recoil.

With the .470, I even cheat and put a dense, 3/8" closed-cell foam pad (from a sleeping pad) between the recoil pad and my shoulder!

Mostly, it just takes some time and familiarity to get you used to the pounding. My 45-70 honestly feels like a 223 after shooting the .470.

[JEBar]

My 45-70 honestly feels like a 223 after shooting the .470.

that being the case, reading about it on the forum is about as close as I want to come to a .470 ..

[Travlin]

What about using a Past recoil shield that straps to your shoulder?

[Dadio63]

OT 405 gr bullet seated to an COAL of 2.580"

with the bullets just toucging th rifleing. Results at 100 yard benchrest shooting: Velocity - 1475 fps, 2 - 3' groups.

2.580” COAL? All the manuals I have read give a COAL of 2.540”. I wonder if there is a chamber difference between your Marlin and the Henry, or if there is a way to measure to get the round to the exact length to have a slight jump before it engages the rifling. I have been lead to understand ( by a former Marine sniper) that having the projectile touching the lands and grooves before firing can result in an over pressure condition.

I’m sure there is a gauge or measurement tool that will allow for that type of precise measurement, I’m just not sure what it’s called ( headspace gauge?), as all the long range precision shooters must be loading their rounds to such an exacting standard.

Thanks for the reloading formula. I’ve been using powder coated 405g RNFP. Have not used gas checks ( would not know how to install them anyway).

[Ojaileveraction]

dadio said
I’m sure there is a gauge or measurement tool that will allow for that type of precise measurement, I’m just not sure what it’s called ( headspace gauge?), as all the long range precision shooters must be loading their rounds to such an exacting standard.

A Hornady LocknLoad Overall Length Gauge, in combination with a Honady Modified 45-70 case will get you there.

Still needs to cycle in and out of the action.

[North Country Gal]

What about using a Past recoil shield that straps to your shoulder?

I've used those. They work, well, for shooting offhand, but they tend to get mangled and squashed when you tuck in and try to shoot a gun from a rest. Not too comfy and a bit awkward at the bench for me. My solution when shooting from the bench with the heavy kickers was to use a sissy bag - a small sand bag - between the buttstock and my shoulder. The cheap rubber slip on pads work well, too. I just slip them on during a range session then remove them when I get home.

[tarbe]

I wonder if there is a chamber difference between your Marlin and the Henry, or if there is a way to measure to get the round to the exact length to have a slight jump before it engages the rifling.

The old-school/hillbilly way is to take a fired case and mash the mouth out of round enough so that a bullet can be started by hand, but is held somewhat firmly. Leave the bullet just started in the case (ie: seated well out). Measure the OAL and record.

Then carefully chamber the round, allowing the origin of the rifling to engage the bullet and push it into the case.

Then VERY slowly and carefully extract the round and measure the OAL. If the OAL has not changed, then your bullet is too short to reach the rifling.

If the bullet was pushed in, the new OAL is the max to the rifling and your actual best OAL can now be found using the max as a basis.

Some rifle/cartridge/bullet combos shoot best as far as 50 thousandths off the lands (Barnes X bullets typically shoot best well off the lands) and some shoot best right up into the rifling.

You will always be starting low on the powder, so seating into the lands is not an issue if you follow proper load development protocol. As mentioned, you don't want to use what would otherwise be a max load and then arbitrarily seat the bullet out into the lands.

Using this technique you must not have too firm a grip on the bullet or the rifling might engrave the bullet such that you pull out an empty case.

Too light a grip and the bullet moves through handling, messing up your result.

Good luck!


Tim

[JEBar]

The old-school/hillbilly way is to take a fired case and mash the mouth out of round enough so that a bullet can be started by hand, but is held somewhat firmly. Leave the bullet just started in the case (ie: seated well out). Measure the OAL and record.

Tim

you mean there's any other way ...

[tarbe]

The old-school/hillbilly way is to take a fired case and mash the mouth out of round enough so that a bullet can be started by hand, but is held somewhat firmly. Leave the bullet just started in the case (ie: seated well out). Measure the OAL and record.

Tim

you mean there's any other way ...

Haha...well, not any other way for me!

I have been using this method since the 70s and I won't be springing the cash for a Stoney Point OAL gauge anytime soon.

For better or for worse, I started handloading when I was a kid making due with lawn-cutting money so I had to find the cheap ways.

[JEBar]

I have been using this method since the 70s and I won't be springing the cash for a Stoney Point OAL gauge anytime soon.

For better or for worse, I started handloading when I was a kid making due with lawn-cutting money so I had to find the cheap ways.

understood .... I started back in the mid 60's .... just curious, are you located near Houston .. .. we spend our winters in Texas, much of the time at Lake Conroe, just north of Houston .... a few of us from this forum try to get together and do some shooting at places like the Blackwood Gun Club ===> http://blackwoodgunclub.com/