What scope to see .17 holes in paper at 100 yards

[henry22]

Hello guys. My dad and I are looking for a good scope in order to shoot 2" potatoes at 100-150 yards, and to see .17 bullet holes in paper - clearly enough to know if we missed - where we missed to, and how from the point of aim we were off.

We want to mount it on a CZ 455 Varmint, .17 cal bull barrel.

These are the candidates we're looking at:

Vortex Viper 6.5-20X50: $669 CDN
OR
Vortex Diamondback 4-16X42: $549 CDN
OR
Nikon Monarch 3 5-20x44 BDC SF: $599 CDN

What scope would fit the bill best, so we don't need to get into a spotting scope?

Much thanks.

[Mistered]

A caliber that small might require an accessory spotting scope on a tripod. .17 holes are pretty small - even for a higher magnification scope. And even if you have a scope such as this you might be actually shooting with a lower mag setting and will have to increase the mag level to see the target. Look into a spotting scope.

[JEBar]

there is no doubt you should be able to see what a high speed 17 does to a tater but a hole in a target at the distances you are shooting would be something else .... I well understand your reservations but with two of you at the range, a powerful spotting scope does make sense .... as to a scope, my preference would be a very strong Nikon

[Ojaileveraction]

Any of those you have listed will work.
"Shoot and See" type targets are a great help also.

[Henry88]

I buy very few accessories, but even I have a spotting scope. To my surprise most at the range I go to don't, and people do ask if they can look at their target with mine, for which I am happy to oblige. Frankly I am surprised how many people with apparently $$$$ don't have them or bring them to the range.

As for the scope, there are so many fine scopes available it would be difficult to do wrong, though I suppose that remains a possibility

My guess is you could get an incredible scope for half the prices you mentioned.

Suggestions to follow............

[North Country Gal]

As above and per my PM to you, get a spotting scope to see individual 17 cal holes at 100 yds. Some days, some light conditions, even 40x and my spotting scope doesn't quite cut it at 100. Yes, splatter target are always a plus, but that assumes you're keeping all your shots in the target. 17 cal holes in either the black or the white on ordinary paper need a LOT of magnification to see.

As Henry88 mentions, I find it more than just surprising more people shooting at 100 yards don't being a spotting scope. There are times when I find it downright rude and annoying. I've actually been shooting next to someone who asks everyone to stop shooting so he could walk all the way down to his 100 yard target, sit there and inspect for a few minutes, then walk all the way back only to repeat this whole thing in only another 5 shots and, once again, everyone has to stop shooting and wait. The comments I overhear from other shooters when he does this is not something I can print. That is NOT a good way to make friends at the range. Do yourself a favor and everyone else and use a spotting scope when shooting small caliber bullets, even at 50 yards. Those big 44 and 45 cal holes are one thing, 17 and 22 cal holes are another.

For 100 yard work, you'll want at least a 60mm objective spotting scope objective (last number), as in a 15-45x60 or a 20-60x60. A 50 for a last number is pushing your luck. A 60mm scope is still small enough to mount on a bench tripod and stay on the bench and, assuming any kind of quality, will have the resolution (think optical muscle) to handle the job.

Greater distances, depending on just how much greater, will sooner or later require a larger objective (last number) for the sake of sharpness at the higher magnification you will need, such as a 20-60x80, but then the bigger scope size means more of an issue of stability and room when trying to use a bench mount. For a scope that size, I usually use a full size tripod or a pole tripod setup next to the bench.

[henry22]

Ok then, that puts it into perspective. And since my post today, I went Googling, and I found this:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7467/scopedistance.jpg

If you look at the first 2 rows, 100 and 200 yards, then look at the last image on the 200 yard row, that's a Nightforce at 22X magnification. It's more of everything, and not a Viper 6.5-20X50, but I thought the Viper would be close enough to the Nightforce 200 yard image.

If I look at the chin of that 200 yard target at 200 yards, that's about the diameter of 2.5-3" potato - and that's at 200 yards. At 150 yards, probably clearer and larger still.

I just didn't want to go MONDO scope, and that Viper 6.5-20X50 is a mountain of a scope. I was thinking if we stick to 100 yards, we'd probably fare pretty well with a 4-16X42, and something with clearer glass. But we are at a fixed price range. I could never justify a $1000 scope for plinking potatos. But there's fun in the idea of stretching out to the point where hit smaller objects at 100-150 yards. I think our goal, is to be able to hit a shelled peanut at 100 yards with this .17, and make it repeatable.

Maybe we should dial down the scope, and just commit to a spotting scope. Great idea actually.

Much thanks guys.

[The Wiz]

I always bring a pair of binoculars ( Bushnell 7x35) that I have had forever to see, even at 25 yrds for any cal. I do most of my shooting indoors and the lightening can be iffy at times depending on the range. I suppose I could buy a spotting scope but this works for me. And I too get asked, now and then, if I would share.

[North Country Gal]

Plus one on the binoculars for large enough holes. We also use ordinary 10x42 binos at 50 yards when shooting our 357s and it does a good job for holes that large. have even used the binoculars for44 and 45 cal holes at 100 yards when using splatter targets. Love shooting the small stuff, but, have to admit, love those big bruiser holes left by a 45 cal bullet. Adds to the fun.

[henry22]

OMIT - double post

[henry22]

Absolutely those larger calibers are fun, and if money was no object, and I won the lottery, I'd likely shoot 30-30 all day, or .223. I really like both of them. The KA-POW of the 30-30 is addictive. But, it always boils down to ammo cost doesn't it.

Thanks for the bino recommendation, I thought of that actually, and it would be easier to transport, and just pull out and use. I might just go do that next weekend.

Last one for the scope questions...

I have an option today to buy either:

Leupold VX2: 6-18x40mm Matte - LRVD for $729.97 CDN
minus a $100 gift card I have
$629 + our HST at 13%: $81.77
TOTAL: $711.94
OR
Nikon Monarch 3: 5-20x44 BDC SF for $599.99 CDN
minus $100 gift card
$499 + HST @ 13%: $64.87
TOTAL: $563.87

Difference of $148.07 — A big enough difference to move to the Nikon. But, for that extra $148 bucks, is the Leupold VX2 THAT much clearer, "better" glass?

And by the way, their out of stock on the Nikon 6-24X50. They do have a Leupold VX-3i, 4.5-14x40mm at $799.00 (minus $100 gift card).

If you guys had to pick the "BEST", for clarity, and the given magnification, object lens sizes etc, what would you do if putting on a .17?

[North Country Gal]

VX2s have very good optics, but if we're strictly talking optics, I'd still go with the Monarch. As for the VX3i, you will see an improvement over the VX2. The 3i is a better match for optics to the Monarch.

The one thing that I do like with the Leupolds, compared to the Nikons, is the Leupold scopes are always trimmer. Definitely prefer the way they look on a lever gun.

By the way, I MUCH prefer a scope with an AO or SF on a 17 for the sake of parallax adjustment because we shoot ours at both typical rimfire distances and centerfire distances. On a big game scope, like these, you will get a fair amount of parallax at 25 yards. Just me, though.

[henry22]

Excellent advice, I think it's the Nikon then, despite the size. It's price point is amazing for that scope right now.

Thanks again.

[henry22]

I pulled the plug yesterday on a Leupold VX2 6-18x40mm Matte - LRVD. It was on sale, from $849.99 down to $729.97, — $100 gift card I had. I sighted 4-5 different scopes, one after the other in the store, and despite what people have said about the Monarch 3 being comparable to the VX3i, I found that the VX2 was much clearer to my eye than the Monarch 3 series, with less "coloration" to the sight picture.

The first Monarch 3 I looked at (also on sale for $599) was the 5-20x44 BDC SF. I found that at 16-18 times magnification at 100 yards, spotting a stuffed wolf was easy, but when compared to the Leupold at 16-18 (full power), the Leupold was clearer overall from lowest to highest magnification. I found that the Nikon had a slight cyan or blue hue to the overall sight picture.

So I went with the Leupold. I can't believe how clear it actually is. I won't be able to spot .17 holes, but it definitely makes a 2" potato at 100 yards appear larger than my Diamondback 4-12-40 on my Henry 22 mag. I could easily spot the nose on the wolf, almost like viewing a 2" potato with my Diamondback 4-12X40 at 50-75 yards.

I think that sweet spot for X usable magnification and clarity is ideal with this scope, for what we intend to use it for. If I had more money, I would have bought the VX3i. To put things into context, I tried a Leupold VX2: 4-12x40mmAO - Matte - LRD, before and after the 6-18 model, and then back and forth, and I kept going back to the 6-18. There was a noticeable difference in 18X magnification VS 12X - and usable at that, and yet retained the same clarity.

I found the the VX2 4-12 "similar enough" in magnification/sight picture size to the Diamonback 4-12 on my Henry, but the VX2 was MUCH clearer. I should have mentioned when I first posted the other day, that this VX2 6-18X40 won't be mounted on the Henry, but on a CZ 455 Varmint, heavy barrel in .17 HMR.

[roddy]

I foresee someone burning through a lot of .17 ammo...

I have been dealing with these guys for ammo lately... https://www.theammosource.com/store/ind ... ol63fr3lg6 They seem to have the best prices in Eastern Ontario (at least as far as I have seen).

[henry22]

Hey much thanks for that Roddy. Good call. I think I lucked out, the range I belong to has extremely competitive pricing, and much better than any of the name BIG stores Cab***'s, C-Tire. — You know who who I'm referring to. Their pricing is way out of whack. I can get 200 round boxes of CCI 40 grain WMR Maxi Mag troy landry edition for $56 bucks including HST, or .27 cents per round, and the same for the CCI A17 ammo, per 200 round box.

At that "BIG" named store, 69.99 per 200 round box of WMR, and 89.99 for A17 — Absurd!

Actually, I think I might end up loading this CZ one round at a time. I've done it many times with my Henry, and actually didn't shoot as many rounds, but had way more fun trying to place them accurately.

[roddy]

That is a great price on the A17 200 box. I bought some a while back, and thought I did pretty good at $69. Try experimenting a bit with other rounds. My Savage 93R17 heavy barrel bolt gun reaaaly likes the 20 grain CCI gamepoints. All guns are different, but I have found mine shoots more consistently with the regular (2550fps) CCI Vmax 17 grain round than it does with the A17 (2650fps) ones. Just food for thought...

[henry22]

It is a great price, and now it makes no sense to buy from those other places. And the hunting store I go to - more of a mom & pop place is MUCH cooler. Better down home atmosphere, it doesn't feel like a "store". Their pricing is also really good, with a 10% membership card. And when I walk in, it always smells like G96. God I love that smell.

Interesting how different ammo performs differently in different rifles. One guy I spoke to who works at a local gun smith shop, told me that his wife's CZ 455 in .17 HMR does really well with CCI 20 grain ammo, for some reason it prefers that over .17. I just wish they made 20 grain in 200 round boxes.

My Henry 22 mag for some reason performs consistently with CCI 40 grain maxi-mag, and 40 grain Winchester Super X. I tried the 30 grain CCI V-max polymer tip a few times, I found I was nicking my potatoes, but for some reason, no direct hits. When I put in a few CCI 40 grainers, I was getting direct hits again.
Maybe I should have re-adjusted the scope? I'm still new to all this bullet behavior stuff.

One day, I'd like to put the Henry and the CZ 455 in a gun vise, on a perfectly level table, and get dead center of a bullseye at 50 yards, then 100 yards, with 3 groups of 3 per distance, per bullet weight, just to see how it behaves, with 30, 40, 50 grain. Maybe it'll give me a more intuitive sense of where to hold for each different weight. I just want whatever is the most accurate at 100 yards. But I usually just buy the 200 round boxes because it's cheaper to shoot 50-100 rounds instead of the 50 round boxes.

What I find really cool though, is where to rest the rifle. When I first shot my Henry for the first time, I was on a friend's property. He has about 150 acres. He set me up in deer stand - more like a wooden balcony, with a chair, my ammo. I put apples and potatoes on top of a huge plastic barrel filled with dirt at about 100 yards, and I was consistently hitting 2" potatoes at that range.

He said, "that's some good shootin". I didn't think so, I just thought well, "I rest the rifle on the railing over my coat, and just behind the fore-end's barrel band, hold steady, crosshairs on the potato, squeeze really gently, and KA-POW, potato dis-appears." What I thought was, what a great rifle, and how fun!

What freaks me out, is when I hit 3-4 in a row, and then don't. And I can't tell WHY I missed, and where I missed to, or by how much. And I think... what happened????

[roddy]

I have the H003TM .22 Mag pump and really like it. I have also found it to be more consistent with the 40 grain rounds. In fact, it likes the cheapest ones I can find...the federal 40 grain round nose. However, I also like to shoot stuff that flies apart...potatoes, water bottles (Wally-World, CTC, etc. usually have a 24 pack for $2-$3) and other home-brewed 'reactive' targets. I've found that the 40gr round nose bullets just pass through, while the polymer tipped 30gr ones blow stuff up...much easier to see a hit at that distance. The CCI 30gr Maxi-Mag HP+V work well too, but the point of impact is again different from either the federals, or the V-Max. I picked up a box of Aguila 40gr semi-jacketed soft point flat nose rounds yesterday...when the wind dies down, I'm looking forward to running some through the pump.

You will have to adjust for different rounds...keep experimenting and learning along the way...that's part of the fun. You could try putting a cardboard box behind the potato, and slap a splatter target sticker on the box to see your hits. I have a 3-9X40 on my .17, and can see hits at 100 yds on a Shoot-N-See reasonably well through the scope (certainly much easier than looking for .17 caliber holes).

As for picking off 3-4 in a row, then a series of misses, it could be as simple as a light breeze or change in wind direction. At 100 yds, it doesn't take much wind to blow a 17 grain bullet off course...1" on a 2" potato is a miss, right?

[henry22]

That's so funny you mentioned the Federal 40 grain round nose - lead. My Henry did really well with those too. In fact, if my memory serves me well enough, that was one of those days I hit 3-4 potatoes consistently - I was using that ammo. The missing of the potatoes was with my Henry 22 mag. I haven't even fired this CZ yet. My dad and I are supposed to test it out this weekend - wind and weather permitting.

I'm thinking maybe it would be cool to buy a bi-pod for the CZ. I do have a Caldwell rest, and it's "ok" I suppose. But it seems like flimsy construction compared to these:
http://www.edgebag.com/

http://protektormodel.com/index.php?mai ... ex&cPath=1 — These look outstanding.