45-70 load development

[Squatch]

Tumbling that close is crazy!

[JEBar]

it sure is .... when I saw (through the scope) the way the first one hit I stopped and walked down to take closer look .... having never seen that before, I found it a bit hard to believe .... all doubts passed quickly when I saw the next two do the same thing

[Squatch]

It would be nice if you could recover the bullets and look at them. See if they engaged the rifling well.

[JEBar]

I thought about that and took a look when I removed the targets .... I'm afraid I'd have to cut way too much wood out of the fellow's back stop and sure wouldn't want to do that

[JEBar]

the time has come to get serious about developing hunting and practice loads for our 45-70 .... shown below are a total of 110 rounds that will be tested for grouping and run through a chronograph ....

the first picture shows the second generation of what I anticipate being our hunting ammo .... 20 rounds each of (left to right) 300, 400, and 500 gr ....

the 300 gr Nosler CT Ballistic Silvertips are loaded with 51.5 gr IMR4198

the 400 gr Barnes Busters are loaded with 42 gr of IMR4198

the 500 gr ACME are loaded with 30 gr of IMR4198 ... our original load for this bullet caused it to tumble .... I'm told that reducing the load may help .... we will see

the second picture shows 10 rounds each of 5 different bullets .... left to right :

10 rounds HSM factory Cowboy Action loads

10 rounds HSM factor Bear/dangerous game loads

10 rounds Oregon Trail 350 gr loaded with 39.5 gr IMR4198

10 rounds Oregon Trail 350 gr loaded with 42 gr of IMR4198

10 rounds Oregon Trail 350 gr loaded with 44.0 gr of IMR4198

based on past experience, HSM factory ammo is the standard we have set for our handloads .... we will be delighted if we can develop loads that equal the HSM's in performance

the third picture shows all 110 rounds

[Mr.RoC]

Take pictures of the groups!

Good Luck!

[JEBar]

I just removed and reinstalled the scope on our 45-70 so the first thing I need to do is resight it .... that will be done with the HSM factory loads .... they have a proven history of excellent groups with our rife .... secondarily but just as importantly, during the process they will be run through our chronograph to determine their muzzle velocity .... whatever the Cowboy action muzzle velocity is, will play a significant part in our search for a practice/range load

[JEBar]

as noted in prior post, the 400 gr Barnes Buster bullets that work really well in our 45-70 are only produced once a year for a short time .... I just lucked onto a site that still has a few from this year's production ===> https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/ ... e-50-count <=== I just ordered two boxes, wish I could afford to order more .... if anyone is interested, they might be well advised to put in an order

[JEBar]

a truly interesting day on the range .. .. I've never spent so much time firing high powered rifles at such a short distance .... would you believe 10' .. .. and yes, I managed to hit the target and backstop with every round .. ... as noted, recently I've been spending a good deal of time loading a wide range of ammo .... today was run them through the chrony day .... I'm happy to be able to say, I learned a great deal .... our Henry really likes HSM Cowboy Action and Bear loads .... if we had to use factory loads for the range and for hunting, that is what we would use .... their Cowboy Action rounds us a 405 gr RNFP lead bullets .... our test indicated an average velocity of 1404 fps 10' from the muzzle .... their Bear loads use a 430 gr WFN GC lead bullets ... average 1843 fps 10' from the muzzle .... shown below (left to right) are our 500 gr, 400 gr, and 300 gr hunting level bullets (links to info about all three can be found in post 1 in this thread) .... as noted in earlier post, we where having issues with the 500 gr bullets tumbling .... no such issues today, their averaged 1404 fps 10' from the muzzle .... I still plan to test them at ranges up to 100 yards but as of right now, they look good .... the Barnes Buster 400 gr were exceptional, I really like them, they could easily become our go to round for game larger than a deer .... they averaged 1783 fps 10' from the muzzle .... the power of those rounds is mind boggling .... we still consider the Nosler 300 gr Ballistic Silvertip to be our go to round for deer and quiet frankly, I'd not hesitate to load them when hunting any critter other than the largest bears on the North American Continent .... here again, having a 300 gr bullet averaging 2265 fps 10' from the muzzle would deliver a major blow .... I also learned that I am going to have to significantly reduce the power charge in our 350 gr lead range bullets ..... they are running close to 400 fps faster than the HSM Cowboy Action ammo .... our next outing will be to pattern all of the above bullets to determine their groups at various ranges out to 100 or so yards that will hopefully generate some interesting targets

[JEBar]

while the process continues, the goal for the project has changed .... as one who firmly believes you ought to practice with the ammo you will hunt with, changing come hard .... when it comes to using our 45-70, several realities have risen to the top of my list :

1. the chance that I will ever hunt any of Africa's Big 6 is nonexistent

2. the chance of me hunting any of North America's big bears is only slightly higher

3. the chance of me hunting any animal with our 45-70 is slim at best


additional nonhunting realities :

1. for me our 45-70 is a keeper .... my plan is to eventually pass it on down the line

2. my plan is to fire it at various ranges as often as possible ... mostly from a bench rest

3. the harsh recoil from dangerous game/full power hunting loads makes it unsuitable for spending a fun day firing a hundred or more rounds

4. the development of a low recoil, reasonably flat shooting 100 to 150 yard range load has become a necessity


decisions made :

1. my bullet will be a Nosler/Winchester Combined Technology 300 gr Ballistic Silvertip .... all other 400 & 500 gr bullets mentioned earlier in this thread will be put in storage .... who knows, one of our sons may one day need them

2. we will use IMR 4198 powder .... as background info, for 45-70 Government loads, Nosler recommends 47.5 gr (84% shell capacity) to 51.5 gr (91% shell capacity) for use with our Henry rifle


effort to date :

1. based on the theory that trapdoor loads should have low recoil, I loaded 6 rounds with 31.1 gr .... an instant observation showed an awfully lot of empty space in the casing .... major reduction in recoil, a bit more than our Henry 357 Mag and a bit less than our Henry 44 Mag .... Chrony readings were all over the place 1358, 979, 975, 1274, 930, 942 .... I believe the problem to be too much empty space in the casing .... load to inconsistent to to know how to adjust the scope

2. second trial .... still within trapdoor load range, loaded 7 rounds with 39 gr which still left a good bit of open space in the casing .... recoil on par with Henry 44 Mag full power loads .... Chrony readings were better but still too inconsistent 1575,1641, 1419, 1271,1568, 1367, 1343

3. third trial .... moved toward the top of trapdoor range since there was an improvement from first trial and second, I loaded 15 rounds with 44 gr .... I hope to be able to test them within a week or so

[Greyhawk]

Great conversation and great information. I'll be watching the continuing saga with much anticipation Thanks!

[Mags]

.
Not a reloader so pardon the dumb question if you will. Is there a wading or some other type of filler to take up the empty space?

By the way I like the tale that you put together to document your efforts. Really enjoy reading them.

.... an instant observation showed an awfully lot of empty space in the casing ....

[JEBar]

.
Not a reloader so pardon the dumb question if you will. Is there a wading or some other type of filler to take up the empty space?

By the way I like the tale that you put together to document your efforts. Really enjoy reading them.

kind words appreciated .... they do make a filler, I've never used one .... effective, lower recoil loads are out there .... HSM's Cowboy Action Loads are a good example .... in our 45-70 they are actually fun to fire .... right now the major question for me is, can I find one using IMR 4198 .. .. most authorities I've read say its the go-to power and, except for recoil, hunting level loads I've tried perform really well .... I'm pretty well tied to working with it until I run out of what I have on hand .... a process that could take a long time

[BigAl52]

Nice of you to do all this reloading work and show us the results Jim. Im watching for the results with the 300 grain Noslers. Im going to trend to that bullet in the future as well. Im not ordering anymore lead or coated lead 405. I have found a real nice plinking load with the Berrys plated 350 bullets which I am going to use in the AW. I have also tried some Midway 300 grain bullets with some success but I see they dont have them anymore. Therefore the reason of wanting the Noslers.

[JEBar]

at $18.95 for 50 here is a link to the best place I've found to purchase them ===> http://www.shootersproshop.com/nosler-p ... -50ct.html

[BigAl52]

Yes Sir Im all on board with Shooters Pro shop. I have bought from them many times in that past. Thanks Jim