44MAG vs 45LC & Twist Rate

[tractortad]

I'm thinking about buying one of Henry's new all weather big boys in either 44MAG or 45LC. As far as I can tell, with all the various factory ammo available for both of these calibers (I'm not into hand loading at this time) there doesn't seem to be too much of a difference - until you look at twist rate. The Henry 44MAG twist is 1/38 where as the 45LC is 1/16. I read on the internet that a 1/38 twist rate was not enough twist to stabilize a heavier (>280gr) bullet - this still leaves a wide selection of ammo for the 44MAG, but does preclude use of some the really powerful big game loads.

So here's the question - which would you choose and why?

[JEBar]

as I have mentioned before, I know next to nothing about twist rates so I try to stick to things I know a little about .... we have shot 180 to 240 grain bullets in our Henry 44 mag, the vast majority have been 240 grain'ers .... so far, they have all performed well and I've never seen a deer, hog, or black bear fight off one of our Nosler 240 grain JHP's .... I'd suggest you get the one with which you are the most comfortable ....

[Deadwood Dutch]

I am with him on twist rates but I have two .44 magnum rifles and have taken deer with both using 240 grains and also the Hornady LEVERevolution in 225 grain, all around 50 yards and they dropped after a few steps. The .44 magnum is also a great round for black bear. Check out the ballistics between the .44 mag and the .45. And also, between the LEVERevolution and the traditional flat point ammo.

[North Country Gal]

Have been shooting the 44 mag all of my shooting life and, to be honest, still not much that can't be done with standard 240 grain or a touch heavier bullets and there's no shortage of these loads available. The 44 mag cartridge was designed around this weight range. Took my first couple of deer with standard 240s out of a Blackhawk. Nice to have that 300 grain bullet capability, but you do not need it for big game work with the 44 mag. Even the 444 marlin, the 44s big brother lever gun cartridge, does best with 265 grain loads. Then, too, a 1-38 does not automatically mean you can't shoot the bigger stuff. Some guns will surprise you.

Since I shoot both the 44 and the 45, my advice if you will be shooting factory ammo for the sake of hunting is the 44 mag. You can walk into any place that sells ammo, even Wally world, and get full power 44 mag loads designed for hunting. In fact, with the 44 mag, it's tough to find light 44 mag factory loads. Most folks just switch to 44 Special for that duty.

Just the opposite with 45 Colt. Most of what you find in shops is either cowboy stuff or standard 45 Colt loads. Standard 45 Colt loads are doable for deer, but are still well below standard 44 mag levels. If you want to push the 45 Colt up to 44 mag levels with factory ammo, you have to go to hot specialty ammo like Buffalo Bore and so on and those loads are not often found in gun shops and if you think factory 44 mag is expensive (and it is!), wait till you price some of these hot 45 Colt specialty loads.

45 Colt is a great cartridge for big game hunting, but you'll need to get into reloading to make it practical.

[Mgderf]

Have been shooting the 44 mag all of my shooting life and, to be honest, still not much that can't be done with standard 240 grain or a touch heavier bullets and there's no shortage of these loads available. The 44 mag cartridge was designed around this weight range. Took my first couple of deer with standard 240s out of a Blackhawk. Nice to have that 300 grain bullet capability, but you do not need it for big game work with the 44 mag. Even the 444 marlin, the 44s big brother lever gun cartridge, does best with 265 grain loads. Then, too, a 1-38 does not automatically mean you can't shoot the bigger stuff. Some guns will surprise you.

Since I shoot both the 44 and the 45, my advice if you will be shooting factory ammo for the sake of hunting is the 44 mag. You can walk into any place that sells ammo, even Wally world, and get full power 44 mag loads designed for hunting. In fact, with the 44 mag, it's tough to find light 44 mag factory loads. Most folks just switch to 44 Special for that duty.

Just the opposite with 45 Colt. Most of what you find in shops is either cowboy stuff or standard 45 Colt loads. Standard 45 Colt loads are doable for deer, but are still well below standard 44 mag levels. If you want to push the 45 Colt up to 44 mag levels with factory ammo, you have to go to hot specialty ammo like Buffalo Bore and so on and those loads are not often found in gun shops and if you think factory 44 mag is expensive (and it is!), wait till you price some of these hot 45 Colt specialty loads.

45 Colt is a great cartridge for big game hunting, but you'll need to get into reloading to make it practical.

^ There's your definitive answer right there.

[tractortad]

JEBar, Dutch - thanks for the input and sharing your experience with 44MAG.

As usual, it looks like our firearms advisor has given out some excellent advice - thanks, NCG.

I'm going to go with the 44MAG all weather.

[BigAl52]

I couldnt add to much more except I dont understand why people buy a 44 mag and want to launch 45-70 size bullets out of them. I see on other websites all the time guys whinnin about why a Henry wont cycle these huge bullets out of a 44 mag. Buy a bazooka if you wanna launch those big bullets. Al

[RanchRoper]

Agreed, isn't the 45-70 the big game bullet?

[DWD445]

I have the BBS 44, love it. Don't have a 45C, but did some reloads for a friend. After research I found out that you can load 45C every bit as hot as the 44mag. I made 10rds for my friend to try w/250g XTP and 24.0g H110. Haven't heard back yet. I told him that he would "feel" these !!

Most factory loads aren't nearly as hot, because most older 45C guns would come apart.
This ammo fact may have something to do with why the 45 twist rate is highest ?

[tractortad]

Most factory loads aren't nearly as hot, because most older 45C guns would come apart.
This ammo fact may have something to do with why the 45 twist rate is highest ?

Yea - it's interesting - two rifles with calibers almost the same but with big differences in twist rate. I don't know why Henry decided on the 1/16 twist for their 45C - maybe it's better for cowboy action rounds?

[Deadwood Dutch]

I just shoot with these two Marlin .44 magnums, sorta wish that I was in the market for one of the Henry's, but that just isn't happening anymore. With standard factory ammo in 240 or 225 grain and with relatively good shot placement, I can bring down any big game here in Pennsylvania within reasonable range. That would be about up to 100 yards in the terrain where I hunt. Of course, never having got into reloading, I am limited as to the amount of range time I get with the .44 magnums. I mostly shoot rim fire at the range.

IMG_2670.JPG

[tractortad]

Nice looking Marlins - looks like you take good care of them. A 44 Marlin is definitely on my "gonna get sometime" list - maybe one of those octagon barrel cowboy models if they still keep making them....

[DWD445]

Most factory loads aren't nearly as hot, because most older 45C guns would come apart.
This ammo fact may have something to do with why the 45 twist rate is highest ?

Yea - it's interesting - two rifles with calibers almost the same but with big differences in twist rate. I don't know why Henry decided on the 1/16 twist for their 45C - maybe it's better for cowboy action rounds?

My theory is, due to lower MV, the 45C needs a little extra twist JMO

[Mgderf]

Most factory loads aren't nearly as hot, because most older 45C guns would come apart.
This ammo fact may have something to do with why the 45 twist rate is highest ?

Yea - it's interesting - two rifles with calibers almost the same but with big differences in twist rate. I don't know why Henry decided on the 1/16 twist for their 45C - maybe it's better for cowboy action rounds?

Twist rates depend a lot on how fast you plan to push the bullet.
Remember, the .45Colt round was originally introduced as a black powder round.
The .44magnum was designed using modern smokeless powders.

[tractortad]

Twist rates depend a lot on how fast you plan to push the bullet.

I think you're right.
So far I've learned:
-Henry and Marlin 44MAG lever guns have 1/38 twist rates and they effectively shoot 180-240g bullets with standard magnum loads.

-The guys at Buffalo Bore don't like 1/38 twist in 44MAG rifles because it can't stabilize their heavy magnum + P rounds - they recommend 1/20 twist in 44MAG lever guns

-Henry 45LC lever guns have 1/16 twists probably to optimize 45LC cowboy action rounds? But it turns out 1/16 twist works well for heavy magnum + P 45LC rounds

-Marlin 45LC lever guns have 1/38 twists because (I don't know - they use the same tooling as their 44MAG?)

-44MAG and 45LC revolvers have 1/16 to 1/24 twists and they effectively shoot heavy magnum + P rounds (like Buffalo Bore 300g and up)


The more I learn about twist rates with these two calibers, the more mysterious it gets - but then again I like a good mystery...

[JEBar]

The more I learn about twist rates with these two calibers, the more mysterious it gets

all too well understood .... in fact, I stopped thinking about it many years ago .... now I'm happy so long as the bullet hits where I aim it

[RanchRoper]

So 1:16 pushes 45C with less or more velocity than 1:38? I'm confused.

[tractortad]

So 1:16 pushes 45C with less or more velocity than 1:38? I'm confused.

Not sure what you're asking here.

What I think is true is that a 1/16 twist 45LC Henry like yours is better at stabilizing a big 300g bullet with magnum + P loads than a 1/38 twist 44MAG Henry. In fact, Buffalo Bore makes a 300g JFN Heavy 45LC + P round that they recommend for a 45LC Henry like yours(I guess if you come across a hungry T-Rex). They don't recommend using any of their heavy stuff (greater than 280g) in 44MAG Marlins (and Henrys) because the 1/38 twist doesn't provide enough bullet stabilization for good accuracy at hunting ranges.

I don't really know why Henry chose 1/16 for the 45LC model Bigboy. I don't think it was to shoot big heavy expensive magnum + P loads from Buffalo Bore. I suspect that the 1/16 twist rate is somehow also good for 45LC cowboy action type rounds, because I think that's what Henry expects most people will shoot out of that model rifle. I may be wrong on this because the Marlin 45LC uses a 1/38 twist like the Marlin/Henry 44MAG.

Maybe JEBar is right - might be time to stop thinking about this...

[RanchRoper]

Agreed. Big bang = big hole = big smile!

[North Country Gal]

As I've mentioned on this subject, before, think of twist rates as more of a guideline, not gospel, on what to shoot in your rifle or revolver. As you can see from my recent post about my Marlin 45 Colt CL with 1-38 twist, it shoots both cowboy and standard 45 Colt loads with excellent accuracy. How it handles the heavy 300 grain plus loads remains to be seen, but I really have no interest in those loads in this rifle. I have Ruger single actions when I want to go 300 grains and over with the 45 Colt and/or the 44 mag.