Nosler 300 gr 45-70

[JEBar]

earlier today I took the first step toward developing deer/big game hunting load for our 45-70 .... we will us we have a long standing preference for using Nosler bullets in our hunting level ammo .... the only bullet Nosler offers for use in a 45-70 is their Combined Technology 300 grain Ballistic Silver Tip ===> http://www.shootersproshop.com/nosler-4 ... -50ct.html .... earlier today I loaded our first 10 rounds of 45-70 ammo with the Noslers .... the picture below is of a Nosler with 51.5 grains of IMR4198, the one in the center is a factory HSM Dangerous Game bullet, the one on the right is a Nosler with 49.5 grains of IMR4198 .... sometime after Christmas I hope to get to a range where we can run them through a Chrony and see which one groups the best ....

[Rugerfanboy]

earlier today I took the first step toward developing deer/big game hunting load for our 45-70 .... we will us we have a long standing preference for using Nosler bullets in our hunting level ammo .... the only bullet Nosler offers for use in a 45-70 is their Combined Technology 300 grain Ballistic Silver Tip ===> http://www.shootersproshop.com/nosler-4 ... -50ct.html .... earlier today I loaded our first 10 rounds of 45-70 ammo with the Noslers .... the picture below is of a Nosler with 51.5 grains of IMR4198, the one in the center is a factory HSM Dangerous Game bullet, the one on the right is a Nosler with 49.5 grains of IMR4198 .... sometime after Christmas I hope to get to a range where we can run them through a Chrony and see which one groups the best ....

I'm a little disappointed in Noslers load data. Looks like there lawyers made them go with powder puff load data cause of max saami spec for COAL and the low case volume pressure....which I got from the powder manufactures website.

Too bad where not neighbors. That would be a fun bullet profiles to work with considering Noslers BC for the bullet. It would be a little expensive cause of the cost of the 45/70 Nosler 300gr bullet and determining the true accuracy by using a ladder test and a chrony. But, in the end, it would be one sweet shooter. The chrony would tell you what your rifles barrel likes in the powder charge department by reading the standard deviations for each shot group.

[JEBar]

interesting info and it is appreciated .... there are 3 levels of 45-70 loads ... the old Trap Door rifles, new generation Winchester/Marlin/Henry lever actions and for rifles like the Ruger #1 .... the loads in that chart seem to be closer to the top level

[Rugerfanboy]

interesting info and it is appreciated .... there are 3 levels of 45-70 loads ... the old Trap Door rifles, new generation Winchester/Marlin/Henry lever actions and for rifles like the Ruger #1 .... the loads in that chart seem to be closer to the top level

The trap door rifle with it's hinged breech block and the Roger #1, with it's falling block....are "very strong actions". The bolt action would be the next in line for strength for the action. Lever action would come next. Not saying it's the weakest action by any means. Anything chambered in 45/70 is gonna have a strong action. That is not a caliber that one wants to mess with if they are recoil sensitive. I'm just very surprised Nosler downloaded the load data for the 45/70 caliber for the lever rifles.

The bullet is one of the components of ammunition. But, in my opinion, it's not the component that controls the load data for the handloader. It does play a role, not just the leading role. It's first and main role is COAL (cartridge over all length) for reliable feeding. Ladder testing with a chronograph will show what the barrel likes in regards to the amount of powder used in the cartridge case. The wrong powder burn rate will yield crappy accuracy. Low powder charge will yield unburnt powder residue resulting in low cartridge case pressure, again bad accuracy. So on and so on....you get or know my point.

Anyways, I am glad your testing different powder charges with a chronograph. The chronograph will tell you what your rifle likes or what it's doing.

[JEBar]

in checking, IMR4198 powder recommendations vary widely from source to source .... numbers below are for 300 grain jacketed bullets :

Lyman's 49th edition reloading manual :
for 1873 (type) Springfield --- 31 - 36 grains
for for 1886 Winchester, 1895 Marlin, and Henry --- 36 - 41 grains
for Rugers #1 & #3 ---- 49 -55 grains

Nosler Volume 8 :
for newly manufactured Marlin 1895, Browning 1886/1886, new generation (not originals) replica Sharps 1874, Winchester 1885/1886, Ruger #1 & #3, Mauser M98 converted for 45-70 ---- 47.5 - 51.5 grains

Hornady Vol 1 :
for Springfield 1873 Trap Door, H&R Shikari,1886 Winchester, Rolling Block 45-70's ---- 32.2 - 42.2 grains
for Marlin 1895, Henry --- 48.0 - 51.2 grains
for Ruger 1 & 3 --- smallest bullet info for 350 grains

[dmsbandit]

In loading for my Henry, I looked to Ken Waters "Pet Loads". His data has always treated me right and he's decades of experience is worth it's weight in gold.

That being said, his data seems to run pretty close to the Hodgdon Data. Lyman's 50th, Hornady, Sierra, all seem to top out about 28,000 psi with the marlin and henry. Seems low when you consider the lowly 30-30 and 35 rem are loaded 10-15,000 psi higher in the same guns.

[bdbrown66]

This is the exact same issue I ran into when looking for load data for the Nosler 300 BT's and the Speer 300 JHP's, using IMR 4198. The data is all over the map, with one manual's "strong" loads being less than the upper end of another manual's "weak" loads. In general, the Hodgdon data seems to be much hotter than others, but they're the powder manufacturer, so I trust their loads. The Nosler data for IMR 4198 runs from 47.5gr (2022 fps) to 51.5gr (2228 fps). The Speer "lever" data runs from 39.0gr (1610 fps) to 43.0gr (1762 fps), while their "SAO" data runs from 44.0gr (1812 fps) to 48.0gr (2026 fps). Meanwhile, the Hodgdon/IMR "trapdoor" data runs from 45.0gr (2008 fps) to 48.0gr (2138 fps), while the "lever" data runs from 53.7gr (2293 fps) to 57.2gr (2407 fps).

In the end, I kind of took a "cross section" view of the data, and decided that I would be well within the safety limits to run a ladder test from 48.0gr to 52.0gr. That should give me a projected velocity somewhere between 2000-2300 fps, with pressures that should be below 33,000 CUP. In a strong action like the Henry I should have nothing to worry about; a load in that range will do everything I need for hunting deer; and it won't beat me up to shoot it. I've got my test rounds loaded but have yet to shoot them, as the weather has been too crappy every day that I've had free time for the last several weeks. I'll definitely report back when I have some results to share.

Cheers,
Brian

[bdbrown66]

Oh, one more note: JEBar shared a link above to the Nosler Combined Technology 300gr Ballistic Tip bullets at Shooter's Pro Shop. Although they don't mention it on their website, Nosler also sells the same bullet without the Lubalox coating thru Shooter's Pro Shop. It's the same exact bullet, just that one is coated and the other isn't. So, if one is not in stock, you may find that the other one is. Load data will be identical.

http://www.shootersproshop.com/nosler-p ... -50ct.html

[JEBar]

Oh, one more note: JEBar shared a link above to the Nosler Combined Technology 300gr Ballistic Tip bullets at Shooter's Pro Shop. Although they don't mention it on their website, Nosler also sells the same bullet without the Lubalox coating thru Shooter's Pro Shop. It's the same exact bullet, just that one is coated and the other isn't. So, if one is not in stock, you may find that the other one is. Load data will be identical.

http://www.shootersproshop.com/nosler-p ... -50ct.html

as a Nosler fan, thanks for the link .... I wasn't aware that the 300 gr could be ordered without the coating

looking forward to hearing the results of you testing

[bdbrown66]

Oh, one more note: JEBar shared a link above to the Nosler Combined Technology 300gr Ballistic Tip bullets at Shooter's Pro Shop. Although they don't mention it on their website, Nosler also sells the same bullet without the Lubalox coating thru Shooter's Pro Shop. It's the same exact bullet, just that one is coated and the other isn't. So, if one is not in stock, you may find that the other one is. Load data will be identical.

http://www.shootersproshop.com/nosler-p ... -50ct.html

as a Nosler fan, thanks for the link .... I wasn't aware that the 300 gr could be ordered without the coating

looking forward to hearing the results of you testing

Same here. Post your results when you have them. Will be interesting to compare. What model 45-70 do you have? Mine is the H010CCH, 22" barrel.

[JEBar]

question for those who have experience with Combined Technology Ballistic Silvertip Bullet .... CT Ballistic Silvertip® bullets combine all the features of Nosler Ballistic Tip® hunting or varmint bullets, but with the addition of an advanced Lubalox® external treatment developed by Winchester that reduces fouling and creates less barrel wear to promote longer barrel life. .... does the Lubalox® coating perform as advertised .. .. video demonstrating the Combined Technology bullet ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7IV1JVxpx8

[bdbrown66]

OK, so I finally got some decent weather to shoot my ladder test. Loads were as follows:

Brass - Starline
Powder - IMR 4198
Primer - CCI 200
Bullet - Nosler 300gr BT
4 rounds each with 48.0gr, 49.0gr, 50.0gr, 51.0gr, and 52.0gr
Distance - 100 yards

I shot each group over the chrono, placed about 15' from the muzzle. Here is the chrono data for each load:

48.0 49.0 50.0 51.0 52.0
Avg. velocity 1761 1868 1882 2001 2041
Extreme spread 123 34 116 78 56
Standard deviation 50 14 49 32 27

Now for pics of each group. The first two groups (48.0 and 49.0) had one shot each that went above the target. These rounds were shooting several inches higher than what I had my scope set for. I eventually dialed the scope down just to keep it on the paper.

48.0:

49.0:

50.0:

51.0:

52.0:

As you can see from the chrono data and the pics, I hit a sweet spot at 49.0, and then the group really opened up at 50.0, before starting to tighten up again as the charge increased. According to the Hodgdon load data, I should be safe to take this load on up to about 57.2gr. I probably won't go quite that high, but I am going to see if the group continues to tighten up above 52.0. I'll work up another ladder from 52.0 - 56.0 and see how that goes. Stay tuned...

[JEBar]

very interesting indeed .... really looking forward to the "rest of the story" .... please monitor the primers as you go up the ladder .... you may want to keep tabs on if / at what load they start backing out,

[bdbrown66]

very interesting indeed .... really looking forward to the "rest of the story" .... please monitor the primers as you go up the ladder .... you may want to keep tabs on if / at what load they start backing out,

Will do, of course, but I'm not expecting that. Reason being, the load data goes up even further for the Ruger #1, etc. I would think that if loads at that higher level were blowing primers, Hodgdon wouldn't publish them. But yes...I will keep an eye on things.

[JEBar]

Will do, of course, but I'm not expecting that. Reason being, the load data goes up even further for the Ruger #1, etc. I would think that if loads at that higher level were blowing primers, Hodgdon wouldn't publish them. But yes...I will keep an eye on things.

with the same casings designed to be used in the Ruger #1, nor would I .... I'm not used to seeing 3 very different loading levels like it is for 45-70 .... are the chamber sizes for all three the same, I simply don't know .... like you, as you have proven by the meticulous way you are approaching developing the load for your rifle, I tend to take baby steps .... using a Chrony helps but, other than keeping an eye on the primers, I have no way to measure chamber pressure .... in every manual you see, they have strong warnings to not exceed maximum load recommendations .... that's fine when they at least come close to agreeing .... when they don't, for me, it can be confusing

[bdbrown66]

I just took a close look at the primers as I was putting the brass in the tumbler for cleaning. There was virtually no noticeable difference between the primers from the 48.0 loads and the 52.0 loads. Maybe just a very slight bit of cratering at 52.0, but very minimal. None of the primers were flattened or backed out.

[bdbrown66]

JEBar, something you may find of interest. After cleaning up the brass that I shot on Saturday, I set about loading up my next ladder test, this time from 52.0 - 56.0gr of IMR 4198. To avoid any length issues, I trim my brass to 2.095", which is the recommended trim length for 45-70 (SAAMI max length is 2.105"). I am crimping right on the cannelure on the Nosler BT's. When I got up to 56.0gr of powder, I could not quite seat the bullet to the same depth as I had been previously. The difference was not great, but it was noticeable. However, by shaking the powder in the casing a bit before seating the bullet, it allowed it to settle enough that it would seat to the same depth as before. Based on that, I would say that 56.0 is pretty much a max load for the Nosler BT. If you trimmed the case at the SAAMI max of 2.105" you could get a little more, but not much. Assuming, of course, that you're going to crimp on the cannelure.

I'll let you know how things go when I shoot this batch.

Cheers,
Brian

[JEBar]

great info .... looking forward to your reports

[bradf]

I usually find a second node with just about everything I load. For my H010, H4198 with Sierra 300 gr HP has a nice node at 55 gr. But the BEST node was at 58.5 gr which was 120 fps faster and a SD of 6.9 vs 28 for 55 gr. There was no sign of excessive pressure. I trim to 2.095 as well.

[bdbrown66]

Ok, another round of testing this evening. Loads were from 52.0 - 56.0 of IMR 4198. I'm not going to post pics of all of them, but I did find a very nice load at 54.0. Average velocity 2125 fps, with extreme spread of 27 and SD of 14. I am quite happy with this load and will load some of them up to test out to 200 yards or so. The group I shot today was 1.5" with one flyer. Apparently I pulled the one shot just a little, because the other three measured .367". I can live with that. Oh...this was at 100 yards.

One important note: I examined all casings, looking for signs of pressure. I could not see any difference whatsoever between the primers on the 52.0 loads and the ones at 56.0. No flattening, cratering, backing out, etc. Nothing at all that would give me pause.

Keep shooting,
Brian