Where are all the Gunsmiths?

[BrokenolMarine]

New Video on You Tube from the FMG guys....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK8hjfKz7YI&t=678s

Funny, but when we moved out here to OK, I didn't know anyone, really. We found a local gun shop we trusted, and when I bought a used Taurus 1911 from someone who couldn't shoot it and didn't like the recoil, I needed to replace the rear sight. I ordered one in, and then found that the original owner had messed up the factory rear, and I wouldn't be able to use my sight pusher or a brass punch and mallet to change it.

I went by my LGS and asked them if they did any gunsmithing. NOPE, they sent their stuff out. Which local smith did they trust. NONE. They had found out long ago the local work wasn't up to snuff. They sent their work an hour south. They happily provided the number and asked that I tell the guy they referred me.

I called the smith and he said to bring the gun and sight down and he'd knock the job out. I asked him if it was a job I could wait on, since it was a two hour round trip. I was willing to hold off until he had an opening in his schedule if he would work with me. "Come down Tuesday... we'll make 'er happen."

He ended up having to MILL the rear sight off, clean up the area and then install the new sight. Great work. I appreciated the job and bought a nice little used 410 pump for Miss T off the used gun rack. (He said I didn't have to do that... but Miss Ts birthday was the next week anyway, and she loves a 410.)

I was in the LGS a couple months ago and thanked them again for the referral. They got real quiet. "We both have to look for a new smith, he has closed his shop."



Nice man, Quality Work and the prices were fair.
But, while I was there, two people came in asking about work and whined about a more than reasonable quote for basic work. Nothing fancy. Another customer came in for Custom Work and never batted an eye at his quote, and it wasn't cheap. Full build...

But no matter what you are doing these days, people want quality custom work for nothing.

[HenryFan]

I think that some folks believe that an individual who can assemble an AR style rifle is a gunsmith.

I don't believe that. I think that a real gunsmith is first an accomplished machinist. In today's society, it seems everyone is expected to go to college rather than to learn a trade. Maybe being a machinist isn't impressive to some folks. Even though a good machinist or a good welder or a good carpenter will earn far more in a career than someone with a degree in gender studies or pre-Columbian Incan pottery. Also, training to be good at a trade might be more challenging than sitting through classes to get a degree in some worthless major.

Devil Dog, I guess where I am going with this is that I don't think the scarcity of true gunsmiths will change anytime soon. Sadly.

[BigAl52]

My gunsmith is my age and I know that if he quits there will be some travel involved should I need one in the future. After my last 2 gun purchases I know how valuable a good gunsmith is. He still has my Ruger and has for 3 weeks. But muzzleloader season was in the middle of the last 3 weeks and I know he was going.

[BrokenolMarine]

My gunsmith in VA built three of my Competition guns, before he got moderately famous in our world. How do you get famous in your circuit? You build the guns that win in the hands of the top shooters. In this case, PPC, though he built other guns as well. The comment above about being a machinist is on point. If Jerry needed a part not readily available, or not exactly what he wanted, he simply made it. Cancer took him before he could become known in the larger gun community. His waiting list for custom work was two years when he was diagnosed and stopped taking orders. I heard he finished the backlog before he passed.

[cooperhawk]

When I lived in Virginia and hunted the Shenandoah Valley for ground hogs and the Appalachian Trail for deer I always dealt with
Shenandoah Guns right on Rte 7 between Round Hill and Winchester. Old Ben Toxvard became a friend. The last time I visited I drove
up there and the whole shop and even his home were gone. I supposed he passed on and no one took his place.
Now if I need a gunsmith I go to Ahlman's Guns in Morristown, Mn. It's a big store and they have over 5000 guns on display. I've
purchased several guns there and there gunsmiths are quite good.
It's like old butcher shops. The butcher dies and no one is interest to take their place.
Shame.

[fortyshooter]

Lot of the machine trade has been CNC type production type work with little hands on fitting type of work which is important in the gun world.
Few of the young 20 somethings getting into the machinist trade or gunsmith work. There are still some shops in the Richmond area though.

[220]

Very few gunsmiths in Aus, those with a reputation for good work are extremely busy. Even something like a new barrel fitted and chambered can be a 12 month wait or more.
I had a very good talk with one about 15 years ago at a show, good reputation and could do anything. He had a couple of double rifles on display built from scratch apart from rifling the barrels. Price was as you would expect well into 5 figures talking to him just under 1000hrs work to build one. In reality the price was cheap, not taking into account materials just labor it was about 20% less than what I was earning at the time as a fitter machinist on wages. He has since given it away, no surprise as most machine shops would be charging 2 or 3 times the hourly rate he was getting gunsmithing.

Worst bit in Aus is by the letter of the law we are not even allowed to perform basic repair work or modifications to our firearms. Legally everything must be done by a licensed armorer/gunsmith/dealer.
I'm a fitter machinist by trade, my father is a tool and die maker, son a fitter/armorer still in the army, between us probably not a gunsmithing job we could not do but the regulations we need to jump through to legally do it, the amount of paperwork needed to be kept mean we wont even consider it. That is before you even look at the fact no one wants to pay the going rate for quality machining and fitting work.

[BrokenolMarine]

Very few gunsmiths in Aus, those with a reputation for good work are extremely busy. Even something like a new barrel fitted and chambered can be a 12 month wait or more.
I had a very good talk with one about 15 years ago at a show, good reputation and could do anything. He had a couple of double rifles on display built from scratch apart from rifling the barrels. Price was as you would expect well into 5 figures talking to him just under 1000hrs work to build one. In reality the price was cheap, not taking into account materials just labor it was about 20% less than what I was earning at the time as a fitter machinist on wages. He has since given it away, no surprise as most machine shops would be charging 2 or 3 times the hourly rate he was getting gunsmithing.

Worst bit in Aus is by the letter of the law we are not even allowed to perform basic repair work or modifications to our firearms. Legally everything must be done by a licensed armorer/gunsmith/dealer.
I'm a fitter machinist by trade, my father is a tool and die maker, son a fitter/armorer still in the army, between us probably not a gunsmithing job we could not do but the regulations we need to jump through to legally do it, the amount of paperwork needed to be kept mean we wont even consider it. That is before you even look at the fact no one wants to pay the going rate for quality machining and fitting work.

You'll find the rare person who doesn't mind paying for quality these days, but most, even if they can afford it, will try and cheap out no matter the product. I have a friend back in VA, (Retired now,) who did custom work. They had a short list of clients who they knew would NEVER balk at paying the bills but expected everyone else to whine. They did high end custom decorating, often in multi-million dollar homes or offices. The clients wanted the top of the line on all the furnishings or decorative items, but wanted to skimp on paying for labor or concept.

IN talking with my buddy while we were floating on kayaks in the middle of the bay fishing one night, he shared that one of his fellow contractors, during the initial interview, would often add a ten or twenty percent surcharge to his estimate when he submitted his quote on a job if he felt there would be haggling on the price at the end of the job. That way he could knock off five or ten percent and still walk away feeling fine. If he ran into a couple where he knew the wife was going to be a royal pain throughout the process he would add thirty or forty percent to the quote, and hope they didn't accept. If they did, he called it his Karen Buffer fee.

Another Contractor he worked with simply wouldn't accept jobs he felt would be stressful due to that situation. He couldn't deal with Wife Changes all through the jobs. (He called them that even if the husbands would be guilty.) His contract charged a 5% fee for changes to the specs that caused disruptions during the middle of the work.

[cooperhawk]

IN talking with my buddy while we were floating on kayaks in the middle of the bay fishing one night.

Are you talking about the Chesapeake Bay? Now I know Marines tended to be a bit nuts, but that is just crazy man!
In Kayaks? Good Lord!

OK, here's a true story. I know it was true because the fellows that did it came to work and confessed it to all of us one morning over coffee.

They went together and purchased an old fiber glass boat. A runabout with a 26 Johnson for power. They took it to the bay for a little fishing but when they got it in the water the battery was dead in the boat, so they took the one out of the pickup they had towed it with. Fine.

So now they're out in the middle of the bay in the shipping channel, (no sweat, if a ship comes along they'll just start it up and move out of the way), and they're catching Rock Fish almost as fast as they can reel them in. It's really getting hot so they put all their keys and such in the glove box and strip down to their underwear. (They're so far out no one can see them anyway).

Now one of them remarks that his feet are getting wet. No sweat, it's a hot and if feels good. Suddenly they realize the boat has split in two and is sinking. Next thing our hero's are treading water in the middle of the bay.

Finally a passing fishing boat spots them and rescues our hero's and deposits them back at the marina and bar where the pickup is, except, the battery and truck keys went down with the Titanic along with their wallets and clothes.

Now our hero's are in the marina bar trying to beg money to use the phone to call their wives and everyone is so busy laughing it takes a while before someone takes pity and lends them some money. They call their wives who now refuse to come get them.

In the end the wives relented and did come and rescue them.

If that had been me I would never have told that story to anyone. Of course their wives would have anyway. It was just too good not to share.

[BrokenolMarine]

We fished the hampton roads tunnel (Called fishing the light line at night..). You fished the shadow line of the lights from the bridge.... Catching blues, striper, flounder, reds. Etc. Then Kiptopeake, fishing around the concrete ships in the dead of winter, catching Huge striper, three to four feet long on live eels. Then there were the old net lines off First Landing state park... Half Mile or more off shore. My Hobie had electronics on it... Fish finder, depth finder... We caught big fishes.

Some of our guys, not me, but some, caught Really big fish.

[BrokenolMarine]

This guy knew No Fear... He was a legend back when we were kayak fishing heavy, and donated his videos to our Charity. He taught a lot of people to fish for the big ones, and do it safely.

Great Guy...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qDrleGDIy ... ZSBiYXk%3D

[BrokenolMarine]

When we fished at night, we made sure we could be seen. This was my Hobie at night, fishing the light line at Hampton Roads....

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Fishing the shadow line, the striper would attack the bait as it moved across that line. Your pedal powered kayak let you hold position, and I caught a big one. THEY towed you around until they tired.

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The concrete ships at Kiptopeake were sunk in place to create a break to protect the ferry's before the bridge was built. They made great habitat for the fish.

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A buddy pulled in one from his kayak and displayed it before it's release, we all practice CPR, Catch Photo and Release.

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For about three weeks in the Nov/Dec months, depending on temp change, the Big Striper, known as Kiptopeake Cows, moved south from New York and New Jersey. We fished for them at Night with Eels.

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We dressed for the weather in dry suits or wet suits/waders and waterproof jackets and caught fish.
It was a great time. For Christmas, Tina and I rented a small house on the island and fished each night.
Great fun.