Accuracy Expectations with .357 Big Boy Steel

[rickhem]

New member making my first post here. I checked the forums and didn't find anything specific to my question, so here goes.

Having always wanted to own a lever rifle in .357, I was happy to find one, a Henry, at my local shop. To my surprise, it already had a Skinner peep mounted on it. A week later, I was the proud owner of a Henry Big Boy Steel .357 with a 20 inch barrel and a loading gate. The rifle looks good, feels good, and shoulders quickly. As a Service Rifle competitor, I really like the sight picture with the peep too.

Took the rifle out in my yard and spent a little time shooting some .38 HBWC ammo I load for Bullseye Pistol. First observation was that the Skinner peep could not be adjusted low enough for impacts to match point-of-aim at 25 yards. Everything hit way high. Figured it might be the ammo, as lighter loads frequently hit higher in revolvers, but that's all I shot that first day. It grouped around 3 inches though, which was not what I expected, I felt it should do better. Granted, 2.7 grains of Bullseye is a light load, but it's accurate as heck in everything else I own. Now my choice was whether to buy the higher front sight from Skinner, or go with a base for an optic sight. I decided the optic sight was the best choice.

So I ordered the Picatinny style base for my rifle, and mounted a Bushnell TRS-25 dot sight. Picked that one because it has the smallest dot, supposedly 2 MOA. I really don't like that the cheek weld I had with the peep was now more of a chin weld since the sight sits much higher, but it's the hits that count. I also loaded up some loads with .357 brass and used both 158 round nose lead and semi wadcutter bullets that I had for Distinguished Revolver matches. Only took a couple shots to get sighted in, and the rifle cycled these cartridges much better than the wadcutters, but again, groups were around 3 inches at 25 yards. Not happy with that at all.

Finally, I decided to try a scope, and bought a Bushnell Prime 1-4 x 32 for this specific rifle. Mounted it in a set of weaver rings, and now the sight line is even higher, but the sight picture is bright and clear. I also bought a box of Fiocchi .357 factory loads, with 142 grain FMJTC bullets, to make sure that the lead bullets weren't the issue. Unfortunately, I'm still not getting acceptable results, with groups still running at 3 inches at 25 yards, and well over 6 inches at 50.

I've checked the mounts for the scope and everything is tight. The crown on the rifle looks and feels good, and running a Q-tip on the crown is not showing any rough spots. There is a little play in the forearm wood, maybe a sixteenth at the rear near the receiver, but I've heard that is desirable for these rifles. I don't expect this rifle to shoot MOA, but now I'm looking at over 10 MOA, and that is with three different sighting configurations, and that's not what I expected at all. For reference, all shooting for groups is done using either a Caldwell Stinger, or off a front rest, owl ear bag, and bunny ear bag rear rest. The rifle is rock-solid using either.

So reading through all the threads here, I see phrases like "shoots sweet", or "nice groups", and similar non-quantitative comments, but little with actual group sizes. I've seen a few claim groups of about 3 inches at 100 yards, which I'd be elated to achieve, but I don't really know if that is realistic or not. I'm not a new shooter, and know that I have good and bad days, but I can pick up the 1022 I built back in the early 90s and shoot 10 shots inside a 1 inch paster at 50 yards without issue, and can still hit half the rams at 100 meters standing.

For those that do actual measurements, what group sizes do you get at specific distances with these rifles?
And apologies for the long-winded explanation for how I got to where I'm at.

[Shakey Jake]

Just my two cents worth. Try using a 158 gr bullet at minimum. I use Nosler bullets handloaded with 15.3 gr of W296. Underwood makes a great ammo as well: https://underwoodammo.com/357-magnum-15 ... low-point/
Let me also state I don't own a Henry .357. Mine is a Winchester 1892. The only Henry I have is the .327 Federal Mag. and both have had trigger work done as they tend to be fairly heavy from the factory.
Jake

[DsGrouse]

I've noticed with my big boy x, plated and jacketed ammo do considerably better. Also, work up your loads. I've noticed a range of groupings based on velocity.

[GFK]

Hey RickHem, I can understand your concern. I have a Marlin .357, not a Henry. So, I cannot offer a exact comparison. I have not tried a scope yet, and probably will not. It has a peep sight for now. But, I seem to get about 1 1/4" group at 50 yards, which is okay with me. I shot two groups. The first one was all over the place, probably me. The second one was better. So, I called it a day. I was shooting .357 158 grain from a bench. Below are my shots:

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[rickhem]

Thanks GFK, I'd be very happy with sub 2" groups at 50.
My question is more towards hearing if others have seen the same results that you have. Looking for numbers from others, are you getting 2 inch groups or 4 inch groups, as the only way to improve something is to measure it, and then you know if your changes are an improvement or not. I don't want to throw a lot of time and components at this if all I can expect is what I've been getting, and what I've been getting is worse than a smoothbore shotgun will do with slugs.

[GFK]

Understood. Another member had a concern about his .44 mag, a while back. Below is the post with links about rifle accuracy. If you are not satisfied with the way your rifle is performing, reach out to Henry. A few people have sent their rifle back, due to accuracy. I think a couple were satisfied with the results.

http://henryrifleforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13445

[Hatchdog]

My Henry Big Boy Steel .357 shoots lights out. This is six shot group at 50 yards bagged on a bench shooting thru a 7x Rimfire Leupold Freedom scope. This is common with my rifle. The load is 12.4 of Win 296, Hornady 158 gr JHP and a CCI sm pistol mag primer. As you mentioned when scoping a Henry the cheek weld becomes a chin weld so I use a strap on cheek riser. I’ll come back with a link to the one I use. I like the rimfire scope as it is parallax adjusted to 60 yards which is a good distance for this caliber.

Here’s an Amazon link for the cheek riser.

https://www.amazon.com/TOURBON-Hunting- ... 32&sr=8-23

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[rickhem]

Thanks Hatchdog. That is a fantastic group.
Part of me is happy that there is possibility with these rifles, but I'm still a bit skeptical that my rifle will get there. If mine can't shoot a knot with wadcutters at 25 yards, something must be wrong.
I'll have to get some of those 158XTPs. And also see what I have left from the hunter pistol silhouette days, I think I have 170 and 180 bullets. I've had good luck with the XTPs in .44 and .45LC in revolvers.

[Vaquero]

Hey Rick, my 357 lever gun is a Rossi, but I know a few guys and a couple members here that use this load.
A 180gr. Pugnose bullet from Missouri bullet co., over 11.4 grs of 2400.
She shoots a little high at 50 yds., but if I do my part I usually get some good groups.
This was a few minutes ago off the deck at 50, my eyes are a little fuzzy from staring at the computer most of the day.
But 4 out 6 didn't do bad.

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This will ring the 8" plate at 100 yds. with ease.

RP

[220]

My 357 is a marlin. best group I have 5 shot at 100y was under 3/4" realistically with jacketed loads it likes a bit under 2" is what I would class as its average accuracy. Cast a bit bigger at around 3".

Last henry I did a little load development for was sons 44mag. It is fairly typical of my experience with cast in lever actions.
210gr tested at 25y initial groups were over 2" yet ended up with groups under 1/2" with 2 powders.
310gr were tested at 50y again initial groups were around 6" but again with nothing more than a variation in powder weight got them shooting under 2"
In my experience the window for cast to shoot well can be quite small and can take a little load testing to find, Sometimes for what ever reason a bullet wont shoot with a particular powder and you may need to try another. Very occasionally a particular bullet just refuses to shoot in certain rifles. I have a few 38/357 loads that will put 10 shots into almost 1" from my revolver at 25y but miss a 4" gong more often than not from my rifle at 50y. Just because a load has shot well isnt a guarantee it will in a different firearm.


If you can zoom in this picture shows the initial 44mag test groups and how much difference even a small powder charge weight can make.

[Hatchdog]

Thanks Hatchdog. That is a fantastic group.
Part of me is happy that there is possibility with these rifles, but I'm still a bit skeptical that my rifle will get there. If mine can't shoot a knot with wadcutters at 25 yards, something must be wrong.
I'll have to get some of those 158XTPs. And also see what I have left from the hunter pistol silhouette days, I think I have 170 and 180 bullets. I've had good luck with the XTPs in .44 and .45LC in revolvers.

There’s been talk on this site that Henry recommends 158 grain bullets for their .357 carbines. I didn’t try any other bullets since this Hornady shot so well. 12.4 is on the low end of the charge range but since I don’t intend to hunt with this rifle I selected the most accurate charge.

This target was from my load devolopement.

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[GFK]

Correction: My Marlin .357 has a semi-buckhorn with fiber optic front post, not a peep sight. It is my Henry 30-30 that has a peep sight. I guess that I should shoot them more often. Anyway, below is what I can do with the peep on the Henry:

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[leverjc]

I had real problems with Henry 357 barrels. I have had about the same results or worse with three out of the four barrels that Henry put on my BBS. One was shooting half inch groups at fifty yards tell the barrel split at the bore. The new gun they sent me shoots about six inch groups at fifty yards then they get bigger after about 15 rounds.

If you have a bore scope take a look, if you don't you could try shooting one more different load and if that doesn't work any better send it back to Henry. With a good barrel you should get excellent accuracy. Hope they do better for you than they did for me.

[rickhem]

Thanks to Hatchdog, Vaquero, 220, GFK, and Leverjc for your responses. I'm glad to see that there are similar rifles capable of grouping well in this chambering, The comment by Leverjc gives me pause, since he's had less than positive results. I'll definitely play around with some different bullets and powders, probably using 50 yards as my evaluation distance. I know Henry has a very good reputation for resolving complaints, but I want to do my due diligence before turning to that. From what I'm seeing, a 5 MOA group is not an unreasonable expectation, and if I can't achieve that or better, I'll assemble my data and open a dialogue with Henry.

And should anyone have anything additional to contribute, please do. These threads live on and provide valuable information for a long time, which is a benefit to future readers.

[rickhem]

To add a bit of extra information to this thread, I spent a little time this past weekend shooting my rifle, and learned a few things. I took a ride on Friday night and purchased some additional ammo to test, specifically PMC Bronze loads, with 158 grain JSP bullets. I also bought a box of Hornady 158 grain XTP bullets for when I load my own. But first, as stated earlier, I wanted to get the rifle shooting groups before I invested a lot of time and money reloading for a rifle that never grouped acceptably.

The first thing I learned is that my Bushnell Prime 1-4X32 scope has more than a little parallax at 50 yards. With the rifle set in the Stinger rest I'm using, I can move my head back and forth behind the scope, and see the crosshairs move back and forth across the face of the target. That's not good. My solution has been to let my head slide back a bit, to the distant part of the scope's eye relief, and get to where the image of the crosshairs and target is narrowed, and surrounded by the black shadow edge that results from having my eye too far away. I'm able to use that effect like an aperture sight to keep the target and crosshairs centered, and negate that effect of parallax.

Next observation was that my rifle does not like to be held firmly when shooting it. My bolt guns, and my AR, all like firm shoulder pressure when shooting from a bipod. Shooting Service Rifle with the sling on the AR, firm pressure ensures minimal movement and more consistent results. Not so shooting the Henry from the Stinger. I've discovered that a "looser" hold on the rifle gives better results. Much like how a "military hold" is suggested for use with spring piston airguns, letting the Henry move a little in recoil led to tighter groups.

Another interesting observation, which may not apply to other rifles due to the height of the optic above boreline, is that a 25 yard zero seemed to work well at 75 and 100 yards. Its pretty common knowledge that a 50 yard zero will put you pretty darn close at 200 yards for most 30-06, .308, .243, .223, whatever centerfire, so I guess that curve (parabola) is tighter for the handgun cartridge rifles. This came as a happy accident at the end of my shooting session. After getting a couple good groups with the PMC Bronze ammo, and wanting to end on a positive note, I shot once at 25 and 75 yards, then moved those target stands out to 50 and 100 yards. Those four shots, and four different distances, using the same target center point-of-aim, gave me what would have been about a 3 inch group. That'll work for any deer I see out to 100. I took pictures but don't seem to be able to load them.

Anyway, just wanted to add some extra info to help anyone dealing with similar issues.

[leverjc]

Good to hear that you getting good groups with your rifle. Lever actions can be sensitive to for end hold. I recently was trying to sight in an Uburti 30-30 at 100yds I was changing my hold on the bench without realizing it and my groups were 2.5"-3" different. I was glad I finally figured it out.

[220]

Good to hear you are making progress, parallax is one of the reasons all my pistol cal levers wear what are designated as rimfire scopes. The shorter parallax setting along with the fact they are often more compact makes them ideal on pistol caliber rifles and the range they are used at.
With group shooting the most important thing is consistency from shot to shot. Shooting my levers off a bench I use bags but set up higher and closer to the receiver than when shooting a bolt. This allows me to grip the fore end comfortably and in a similar manner and with similar pressure to what I would use when shooting from any field position. The fact it is a comfortable and natural position probably makes the repeatability from shot to shot better and results in very little difference in point of impact when shooting from field positions.
Regardless of technique it is a matter of finding what works for us individually, I am sure some people would think I do it all wrong but it works for me, works consistently and in the end that is what it is all about.
I actually found a pic of the best 5 shot group I have ever fired at 100y from my 357 while going through some old photos. Well under 1" certainly a bit of luck although the rifle does shoot under 2" consistently at that distance

[JEBar]

below is a picture of one of our grandsons holding a Gatorade bottle lid with 2 rounds from his Henry BBS 357 .... they were fired with our 158 gr reloads from a rest at 100 yards when he was 8 years old .... in my book that's pretty dang good accuracy and consistency

[MOAgirl]

First thing I would recommend is throw the dot scope in the garbage. I wouldn't put one of those on a cap gun. In regards to your second scope, my standard is buy a scope about half the cost of the gun, so if the gun costs $700-$1000, get a $300-$500 scope. You can't expect good results with a $79 scope ever, my 7 year old son would tell you that.

[GFK]

I was told a similar thing, about the scope that came with my Marlin 336W. But, I have not wanted to invest the money into another one. I may not shoot the most accurate shots with it. Yet, I am still working out if it is me, the rifle, ammo or the scope. So far, I have been happy with the results, for what I hoping to do with use it. However, I am always looking for room for improvement. And, there is probably room for improvement in that area. The trigger does seem stiff. Since I am not much of a gunsmith, I am hoping that it will wear in. But, time will tell.

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