357 vs 30-30

[JEBar]

a recent conversation with a friend about using a 357 Mag rifle for deer hunting motivated me to do some research ....within its range (for sake of discussion 100 +/- yards), I don't know anyone who would dispute the ability of a 30-30 to take down deer and/or black bear .... in looking through various manuals, muzzle velocities of +/- 2,000 fps with a 150 grain bullet are pretty common .... none of my manuals provide such data for a 357 rifle ... according to Nosler, their 158 grain bullet 357 loads, fired from an 8.3" barrel show muzzle velocities of +/- 1,500 fps .... specific example : with 14.8 grains of W296 they show 1,540 fps .... the reason I mention that load is, that is the load we have been using for decades for our son's Ruger GP100's .... the additional 11.7" of the 20" barrel on a Henry H012M could be expected to increase the muzzle velocity to where it is comparable to that of a 30-30 .... to me this reinforces the fact that, within its range (here again for sake of discussion 100 or less yards), a Henry 357 has to be considered capable of taking deer .... comments ?

[tx gunrunner]

Put 2 one gal jugs at 100 yds and shoot 1 with your 357 and then the other one with a 30-30 . You will see the different . Then post your opinion .

[JEBar]

will give that a try .... I have no experience shooting gallon jugs with them but having helped clean several deer taken by our sons with their GP100's at 50 +/- yards, I have no doubt that out of a rifle the 357 can do the job .... the reality is, it doesn't take a cannon to bring down a southern whitetail

[CT_Shooter]

JEBar,
I think you'll find this article helpful, too.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/0 ... 57-magnum/

[JEBar]

nice article .... thanks for posting the link .... the data given pretty much reinforces what I've been thinking .... at 100 yards or less, the 357 stacks up pretty well .... quotes taken from the link ....

"the .30-30 still dramatically outperforms these exotic .357s at longer ranges." ....

"Hornady makes a .357 Magnum 140-grain Leverevolution that claims to get 1850 fps and 1064 lb-ft from an 18″ carbine. Buffalo Bore also claims that their “Heavy” .357 Magnum hard cast 158-grain loads will produce 2153 fps and 1626 lb-ft from an 18″ carbine. This would place it in the middle of the pack for .30-30 ballistics, at least within 100 yards, at a cost about equal to premium .30-30 ammo." ....

the last 2 paragraphs of the article's conclusion seem to be well thought out :

"If you plan to use your gun on bigger game or at ranges past 100 or 150 yards, the .30-30 is your clear choice. While the 16″ Trapper is very handy, consider an 18″ barrel which will give you an extra round of magazine capacity and a small ballistic increase.

If your gun is likely to be used primarily for recreational shooting, hunting medium game within 100 yards, or defensive use, the .357 is superior. Its higher capacity and lower recoil are more suited to such applications where the extra power and penetration of the .30-30 would be wasted."

historically, for our deer hunting the average shooting distances are much less that 100 yards with a good portion falling within the 25 - 50 yard range .... under those conditions, a properly placed shot should do well

[PT7]

Whenever this "discussion" comes up, I'm reminded of Henry's web info for the .30-30 at https://www.henryrifles.com/rifles/the-henry-3030/

"...the .30-30 rifle remains the perennial choice of whitetail hunters. More than just another deer cartridge, the venerable .30-30 has been the king of deer calibers since the first rifle chambered in this ageless round was produced in 1894. In fact, it’s a safe bet that in the past century, no other round has put more antlers on the wall and venison in the freezer than the .30-30."

I'd say that Henry's research and "safe bet" is possibly valid...there are a lot of .30-30 rifles used for the deer hunt!

But I wouldn't hesitate to take a Henry .357 Magnum Big Boy for deer hunting (which I did). And to me, CT's article on the .357 Magnum provides good support for that caliber to be used to harvest deer. I've shot a .30-30, but prefer the .357. I think it's a great ammo, and in a Henry Big Boy, it will to the job fine! Just my two cents.

[DWD445]

Never tried W296, but as I said in yesterday's range report H110 was a cannon ball in my 8" DW, wish I had a Henry to try it in, maybe my shoulder wouldn't be sore today. I was just over min load and they were WAY stronger than any factory ammo I shot. At max 16.? 10" was over 1500fps.... So IMHO 357mag + Henry = venison in freezer!!

[JEBar]

just to be clear, I'm not saying that I believe a 357 is better than a 30-30 .... I have my grandfather's early edition Model 94 Winchester 30-30 .... he took more bear and deer with it than I'm ever subject to see in the wild .... I've contributed to that total and one of our sons is determined to be the 3rd generation to take a deer with it .... in the opening post I selected it to cite as a standard to measure by and did so because I hold a 30-30 in high esteem .... just as there is nothing a 308 can do that 30-06 can't do a bit better .... nothing a Winchester 300 Mag can do that a 300 WBY Mag can't do a bit better .... with the exception of less recoil, there is nothing a 357 can do that a 30-30 can't do better .... the longer the range the bigger the gap becomes .... if doing so under there limitations, I wouldn't hesitate to hunt for deer, small bear, or boar hunt with either of them .... the fellow in this short video was beyond fortunate but he did demonstrate the impact of a 357 ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwT42pFCsNU <===

[White Squirrel]

In Indiana, only shotgun slugs or straight-walled handgun calibers are legal, so no doubt that here a .357 is more popular than a 30-30!

[ditto1958]

The Lee loading manual has quite a few rifle loads for .357. With H110 powder and a 158 grain Hornady XTP bullet, the starting load is rated at 1619 fps. A max load is a little over 1700 fps.

That should be plenty for hunting at reasonable distances.

[JEBar]

In Indiana, only shotgun slugs or straight-walled handgun calibers are legal, so no doubt that here a .357 is more popular than a 30-30!

I didn't realize Indiana was among the states that have adopted the straight-walled handgun calibers requirement .... I tend to believe that as population growth shrinks the country's wide open spaces, more states will adopt that provision

[clovishound]

I've posted this before, but will bring it up again. I ran some American Eagle 158 grain soft points over the chronograph from my Henry .357 Big Boy steel. 20" barrel. They came in at an impressive 1800 fps. Good enough for me on 150 lb, or less, game, at ranges under 100 - 125 yds or less.

[White Squirrel]

In Indiana, only shotgun slugs or straight-walled handgun calibers are legal, so no doubt that here a .357 is more popular than a 30-30!

I didn't realize Indiana was among the states that have adopted the straight-walled handgun calibers requirement .... I tend to believe that as population growth shrinks the country's wide open spaces, more states will adopt that provision

Just the opposite. Indiana has only recently allowed straight wall cartridges rifles. Prior to that the only firearms allowed for deer hunting were shotgun slugs, straight wall handgun calibers, or black powder firearms. Hunters have been trying to get the higher powered rifles like 30-30. .308 or .223 included for years, but with no success. In 2015, they lobbied extensively to get a change. At the last minute, the Department of Natural Resources ruled against it saying in their surveys of hunters, there was not enough support to warrant a change.

[JEBar]

Just the opposite. Indiana has only recently allowed straight wall cartridges rifles. Prior to that the only firearms allowed for deer hunting were shotgun slugs, straight wall handgun calibers, or black powder firearms. Hunters have been trying to get the higher powered rifles like 30-30. .308 or .223 included for years, but with no success. In 2015, they lobbied extensively to get a change. At the last minute, the Department of Natural Resources ruled against it saying in their surveys of hunters, there was not enough support to warrant a change.

interesting info .... as noted, I'm not up on Indiana regs .... my experience has been that slugs and some black powder rifles are best suited for short range hunting .... the same is true for straight wall pistol cartridges fired from a rifle .... they apparently don't see the need for long range hunting rifles

[Steve51]

I enjoy reloading straight walled handgun cartridges but have no desire to load bottle neck cartridges. That would be my main reason for staying away from the 30-30. It is very rare for me to take a shot over 100 yds, so the .357 magnum and the .44 magnum rifles work for me. Then there is the .45-70 if I need some real firepower under 100 yds.

[Travlin]

Just remember not too many dear are killed at the muzzle of the hunters rifle. The short fat .357 slug will lose velocity and energy a lot quicker than most any 30 caliber slug.

[Deadwood Dutch]

I'm not sure which I will hunt with this deer season, one of the .44 magnums or my .30-06, 760 Gamemaster. The .30-06 probably needs sighting in since it has been a few years. It has been too darn hot for me to go shooting. It has see-through mounts and a cheap old Armsport 3X9 scope that I have used since about 1976 but it has served me well and I only focused it once in all the years. I have shot a pile of deer with it and missed my share too. I have lost count but I believe that the number shot is something like 33 or 34. With the .44 magnum I have killed a couple and with a Winchester model 94, .32 Winchester Special, I only ever had one shot around 1969 and I lost that one after tracking it from 10:00 in the morning to sundown. Most all of my shots have been 75 yards and under. And, in the past few years, the deer herd is definiteltly not what it was in the larger numbers like before, where we hunt. All I can say is, with the .30-06 and either 150 or 180 grains, it dumps 'em, most of them in their tracks. Now, in regards to the .357 magnum, I don't own one, I never hunted with one, but if I owned a nice steel or brass Henry .357 magnum I certainly wouldn't want to only take it to the range or for a hike or have it sit in the gun cabinet. It may not be my first choice for deer hunting, but if I had one I would certainly want to see how it performed in my favorite corner of the woods where I have hunted since 1969, either from a tree stand or still hunting. I can certainly understand how you guys that own them can't wait for opening day, and I wish you all the best of luck with yours. Oh yes, I almost forgot, I wish that I still had my Model 94 Winchester, but I sold it a long time ago. There are a lot of .30-30's in this neck of the woods.

[Hunter5567]

In the Hodgdon manual, 15gr is the starting load for H110/W296 with the 158gr bullet up to 16.7grs for max load. You might get just under 1500fps with the max load in the revolver. 1619fps and 1757fps in the rifle with the start/max loads. A rifle will gain 300-400fps over the revolver with the same loads. H110 and W296 are the same powder.

[Mistered]

With good bullet and reloads the .357 essentially equates the 30-30 to ABOUT 100 +/- yards but that needs to be considered maximum for deer hunting. The .357 Mag is a fantastic cartridge - and maybe the BEST in it's class (straight wall pistol/rifle). Good bullets are the key for hunting with the .357 and I REALLY like the 158 gr. Speer Gold Dot. They are an incredibly accurate bullet with 16 gr. of WW 296 which is probably the best powder for full house .357 loads. It meters well and burns very clean. I have (and do) load and shoot more .357 than anything else!

[shaner]

In Indiana, only shotgun slugs or straight-walled handgun calibers are legal, so no doubt that here a .357 is more popular than a 30-30!

same deal here in ohio,