Winny 94 and 160gr FTX bullets

[cpaspr]

I grew up hunting with my dad's 1951 Model 94 in .30-30. My older brother ended up with it, so several, many years later, I found one of my own. I bought one a few years ago that someone had bubba-fied, drawing large mismatched diamonds on the stock and handguard in black ink. It took a bit, but it cleaned up nicely. And after I had it, I realized that I've been shooting scoped rifles for the last 45 years for a reason. My eyes aren't what they once were, and at this age, I simply can't see the sights well enough with buckhorn sights. I can still see peep sights, though, so it got a Marbles tang sight. Fast forward a few years, and I realized I just really don't like the tang mounted sight, as it is mounted right where my thumb goes on the wrist of the rifle. So, a month or so ago I took the Marbles off and bought a Williams Foolproof receiver mounted sight. I got that installed a couple of weeks ago.

I've always used 150gr round-nose bullets for hunting, but someone at the range recently had a good deal on almost 300 160gr FTX bullets for $100. Trying to keep this long story short, loaded at near max loads of IMR 3031 they hit about five inches high at 100 yards with the peep all the way at the bottom. They group nicely, just way high. I'm going to need a taller front sight. Does anyone know of a good calculator to determine how much more front sight I need?

Thanks in advance.

[DsGrouse]

I asked google AI and Grok 2.0 AI. Here are their responses...

Google AI

Figuring Front Sight Height
To figure front sight height, follow these steps:

Measure the sight radius: Measure the distance between the rear sight and the front sight, from the face of the front sight to the back of the rear sight blade. This is typically denoted as “S” (sight radius).
Measure the impact distance: Measure the distance between your point of aim and the point of impact (where your bullet is hitting). This is typically denoted as “D” (distance).
Convert the target distance to inches: Convert the target distance (e.g., 20 yards) to inches. This is typically denoted as “R” (range).
Calculate the correction: Divide the impact distance “D” by the target distance “R” in inches. This will give you the correction needed for the front sight height.
Formula: (S × D) ÷ R = correction

Example:

Sight radius (S): 6.375 inches (measured from face of front sight to back of rear sight)
Impact distance (D): 1 inch (bullet is 1 inch low at 20 yards)
Target distance ®: 720 inches (20 yards × 36 inches/yard)
Correction: (6.375 × 1) ÷ 720 = 0.00875 inches (shorten the front sight by approximately 0.00875 inches)
If your calculation indicates a taller front sight is needed, you’ll need to add height to the existing sight or install a taller one. If the calculation indicates a shorter front sight is needed, you’ll need to file down the existing sight or install a shorter one.

Additional tips:

Ensure your rear sight is in its middle position to allow for maximum adjustment up or down.
Use calipers to measure the sight radius and impact distance accurately.
Consider using a sight height calculator, such as the AMERIGLO Sight Height Calculator, to simplify the calculation process.
If you’re unsure about the calculation or the process, consult with a gunsmith or experienced shooter for guidance.

Grok 2.0 AI

Figuring out the correct front sight height for a firearm involves some basic ballistics and math. Here's a step-by-step process to calculate it:

Determine the Bullet Drop at Your Zero Distance:
You need to know how much the bullet drops over the distance at which you want to zero your sights (e.g., 25, 50, or 100 yards/meters).
This information can be found in ballistics tables, or you can use a ballistics calculator. Bullet drop is typically given in inches or centimeters.
Measure or Know Your Sight Radius:
The sight radius is the distance between the front and rear sights. Measure this in inches or centimeters.
Use the Formula for Sight Adjustment:
The basic formula for adjusting sight height is:
Δ
Front Sight Height
=
Bullet Drop
×
Sight Radius
Zero Distance
Bullet Drop is the amount of drop in inches or centimeters at your zero distance.
Sight Radius is in inches or centimeters.
Zero Distance is in the same units as your bullet drop (convert yards to inches if necessary, 1 yard = 36 inches).
Example Calculation:
Let's say you're zeroing at 100 yards (3600 inches), the bullet drop is 3 inches at 100 yards, and your sight radius is 18 inches:
Δ
Front Sight Height
=
3
inches
×
18
inches
3600
inches
=
0.015
inches
This means you would need to raise or lower your front sight by approximately 0.015 inches to zero at 100 yards.
Adjusting the Front Sight:
If you're using a replaceable front sight, you might need to swap it out for one that's either taller or shorter.
If the sight is adjustable, you'll need to fine-tune it. Remember, adjustments might be in clicks or turns, and you should refer to your firearm's documentation for how much each click or turn adjusts the point of impact.
Trial and Error:
After making an initial adjustment, you'll need to test fire to see where your point of impact is relative to your point of aim. Adjust again if necessary, keeping in mind that small changes in sight height can significantly affect bullet impact.
Consider External Factors:
Wind, temperature, altitude, and ammunition type can all affect bullet drop, so consider these when finalizing your zero.

Remember, this calculation provides an estimate. Due to manufacturing variances and other factors, you might need to make further empirical adjustments at the range. Also, this method works for iron sights; if you're dealing with optical sights, the method might differ, especially with scope adjustments.

[North Country Gal]

If you're interested, there are ways to mount a scout scope on pre-64s and some do not require drilling and tapping. I've gone with a 2x scout scope on my 1946 Model 94 and really like it. Let me know.

Otherwise, I've always gone with a Skinner blade front sight in one of the tallest heights and filed down as needed while at the range, shooting to see what height I need.

Best of luck. Those old Winchester Model 94s are such fine old 30-30s. Good to hear you're still shooting yours.

[cpaspr]

Thanks for the responses. I'm at work, but if I recall correctly, it was 23 inches from the back of the rear sight to the back of the front sight. Per the Google calculation, I should use the distance between front of the rear sight, so for now I'll assume 22.5". That 5" is with the rear sight bottomed out, so the resultant calculation is going to be a minimum front sight addition, just to get it to zero with this particular combination. So, taller will be needed. I can accept that. Doing the math 22.5" sight difference times 5" shooting high divided by 3600 (100 yards in inches) nets .03125" minimum added to the current sight height.

NCG - thanks for the offer, but I've already D&T'd for the receiver sight. I hesitated to D&T the receiver, but then decided that since it had already been bubba'd, and after that I'd already had the rear tang D&T'd, it didn't really have collector value, and I wanted to be able to shoot it, so D&T'd it for the receiver sight. Plus, with my eyes, I generally use 3x9 scopes, and rarely move them off of the top setting.

[North Country Gal]

I get that. Good decision. By the way, Winchester started to drill and tap the Model 94 in 1952, one year later than your gun. You just beat them to it. Good move,

[cpaspr]

So, last weekend I took the Win 94 out, with the rear sight halfway up, per the "additional tips" in the Google AI section above. I knew it would be hitting higher, but aiming at the very bottom of the target I was launching them over the top of the target frame.

When I got home, I decided to look at the replacement sight issue a bit differently. What are the heights of the replacements sights available, and what is the height of the installed sight? I then modified the above formula to solve for the Bullet Drop rather than for the replacement sight height.

BD (bullet drop change) = S (new sight height-old sight height) x R (range to target in inches) / L (length of sight radius in inches)

My current front sight is .220-.230" tall, depending on where I measured it, so I split the difference and called it .225".

So: BD = (.???-.225) x 3600 / 22.5

The replacement heights available are .290", .312", .343", .375" and .450".

Plugging these amounts in to the formula above gives me 10.40", 13.92", 18.88", 24.00" and 36.00".

So, since I'm currently hitting 5-6" high with the current front sight, I'm thinking the .290" or .312" might give me the best adjustment. I'm currently shooting 160gr FTX bullets, so will be moving that rear sight up slightly with either new front sight, but if I switch to 150gr round nose, and switch the powder to IMR4895, the potential is there that they could be moving 10% faster and therefore leaving the barrel sooner in the recoil impulse, and thus hitting lower. Hence the consideration of the .312" sight. Hmm. Nah! I have 300 of the FTXs, and I'm in my upper-mid 60s. I will probably never shoot all of those. Another aspect of the shorter replacement front sights is that in addition to the full power load I actually shoot a 110gr cast bullet more frequently, with 6.5gr of Unique behind it. It's a fun 50 plinking load for steel plates and new/recoil averse shooters. When I was hitting 5-6" high with the 160gr FTXs, I was hitting 4-5" low with the plinkers.

Does anyone see a problem with my calculations or logic?