Testing the newly returned 357bbx and the Scheutzen powder measure

[DsGrouse]

So I loaded up some rounds the other night. 125's to 180's. The powder was Win 244. The lowest drop was 4.7 and highest was 6.8 grains.

I did notice something unusual. I loaded these in 5-round groups, save for the wadcutters and 180-grain silhouette rounds, which were 10-round groups.

At the begining of each of these shot strings, i saw around a 100fps, sometimes as much as 150fps difference. It was always the first shot of the string.

I weighed each charge separately on two electronic scales the other night. I know; they dropped at the correct charge weight. My hypothesis is this: during the time I was closing out the chronograph's shot group, entering the data on my phone, grabbing a drink of water, and loading the tube, the barrel had enough time to cool off.

It was always the first shot, not the first cartridge loaded, or the last. I even tried chambering the middle-loaded cartridges first. So, each of these chrono data pages has 1 cold bore shot that's been excluded from the averages. If you notice a flier in the groups, it was that cold-bore shot.

The ammo: Blue stripe, lowest (cold) charge, Pink (warmer charge), Orange, (hot charge, near max)



First group, Sier 125grns loaded with 5.2 and 6.0 grains of win 244. Both ladders aimed at the same point


All 10 shots at 50 yds. The lower shot and far-right shots are the 1st shots in each loading.


Roze 158grn JSHP 5.2 and 5.6 grns


Low shot, and far right were first shots in their string. This low shot was after a 20 min break, and was nearly 150fps slower.


Nosler 158grn JSHP 5.2 and 5.6 grains.


Far right were the first shots in each loading. The rest of the dispersion is because every other round was going super with the first group of 5; the second group of five, I suspect, was falling subsonic at that point. I bet if I lowered the grain weight of the first to 5.0 and upped the second to 5.4, both groups would tighten up.


Old hornaday 158grn JSHP (20-30 year old box) 5.6 and 6.2 grains of win 244


Again the first group, being so close to the sound barrier, was the primary culprit for this dispersion. The second group was quite a bit tighter.


Sierra 140grn JHP 6.3 and 6.8grns of win 244


The one low shot was the first shot of the 6.3 group of 5. The rest, all 9 of them, are above.


Nosler 150grn JSP 5.6 and 6.2 grns win 244


The far right shot is all on me. I pulled that.


Here we come to my tormenting foe. Wad cutters. These are Berry's plated hollow-based wadcutters. I've NEVER had a wadcutter round that grouped with any kind of consistency. I've tried from 600 fps up to, well, yesterday, 1350. Let's see how they do with Win 244 and the returned Henry. These are all 10-shot groups instead of 5.

Berry's 148grn HBWC 4.7 grns win 244



Berry's 148 grn 5.2 grns of win 244

So two shots are missing from this. One I pulled stupidly high and left. The second was the cold bore shot, and It went 8 inches low and 5 inches left. I suspect that the 98fps difference (1111.3 fps) brought it down to the sound barrier, and the wadcutter started wobbling at that point.


Berry's 148grn HBWC 6.0 grains of win 244. At this point in the shooting, I knew these would be pissing hot for these berry's plated bullets. But hey, science and all that.

So what did Uncle Evan's hot wadcutter loads look like? These three were the only three out of the ten in this area of the target. The whole group, if i had to guess was close to 18 inches.


Back to my subsonic load of choice.
Hornaday silhouette 180grn (same 20-30-year-old box) 5.8 grams of win 244.

The 10-shot group?

[Redthies]

You mention “returned” Henry a couple of times. What did they do? My .44 Mag just got a new barrel at Henry, and while it’s decent with 240 gr Federal JHPs, my Barnes 225 gr VorTX are not even on paper at 50 yards when the Feds are MOA at that distance. I don’t know what to make of it. I’m going to try Fed Hammer Down 270s next as they were co-developed with HRA. If it doesn’t shoot those well, I’m going to stick the thing up their @§§!

[DsGrouse]

You mention “returned” Henry a couple of times. What did they do? My .44 Mag just got a new barrel at Henry, and while it’s decent with 240 gr Federal JHPs, my Barnes 225 gr VorTX are not even on paper at 50 yards when the Feds are MOA at that distance. I don’t know what to make of it. I’m going to try Fed Hammer Down 270s next as they were co-developed with HRA. If it doesn’t shoot those well, I’m going to stick the thing up their @§§!

I bought the 357 and 45 colts production spun up after their move to WI during COVID-19, IIRC. I don't know if that had anything to do with it.

I can't get the 45 colt to group lead or any factory 250 grain loads. Period. Maybe 3 to 14-inch groups. Factory-jacketed ammo usually ranged around 2.5" groups.

But I got these so I could hand load some heavy bullets for subsonic hunting, IE, the 180-grain 357 mag and the 300- to 320-grain 45 colt loads. I wanted to use lead because I wanted to be able to reload cheaper.

I've found a few loads of each that were OK, i assumed the fact I'd not found good loads was because i was new to reloading and lever guns. but while testing the firing pin broke on the 357 broke. I had to send it back.

Here is what they sent it with.



When I shot the rifle, it was completely different. Loads that I'd made up that grouped 5 to 6 inches before were about 2" at 50 yds. (save for wadcutters, which I think don't group for xxxx past 25yds.) To my surprise A number of loads that had been abject failures, 10" or more, were now a group of 10 with a flier or two.

The last Friday, I put in an RMA to Henry for the 45colt. It's developed an intermittent light primer strike, on factory rounds too, I listed my concerns in the online portal but I've not heard back yet. My 45 colt will be going in.

As for yours,
I'd slug the barrel. Maybe it's prone to liking a certain size of jacketed bullets. (I suspect that's the case with my 45colt) IIRC 44mag and 45 colt at one point had barrels with some silly twist rates. Like 1 in 30.

[rickhem]

Nice write up! It looks like that Sierra 140 sure is liking your barrel.

I've noticed that my .357 also seems to put the first round a bit outside of the group, and the distance of that variation changes with each load. I like to have a good quantity of the reloads I plan to hunt with, and take a few shots whenever I'm doing some other shooting. I make it like an ongoing cold-bore test. I've even left the target out on my 50 yard frame so that my shots can all go onto the same target for a better look at groups.

And I'm also very frustrated with wadcutter groups. I can shoot a 686 and a Colt Officer's Model Special I have to better groups than I get with my BBS. My load is the Zero 148 HBWC over 2.6-2.7 grains of Bullseye, and that shoots very well from the revolvers, just not the Henry levergun. I do remember though, that the guys that shot the Smith 52 for Bullseye always talked about how the 50 yard SF stage (outdoor) was rough with the 148 HBWC bullets, saying that it was such a long bullet that it wasn't a good bullet for much past 25 yards.

[DsGrouse]

I did get the Berrys 148's to group. I think I might load a second set ten shot groups 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 grains and see how they go. The berrys are shorter than the 180 grain bullets I've been using.

I'm betting it has as much to do with the flat face, hollow skirt, and nearing the sound barrier.

It's the same type of problem you see with Air rifles when pellets are pushed past 900fps. the skirt starts flashing and the resistance of the sound barrier causes it to wobble. If you can push it past the sound barrier, that's good, but the velocity drop off when it drops below the speed of sound causes the same problem.

I think this is the same problem with the wadcutters shot out of the Henrys. Below the speed of sound, the cartridge doesn't have enough pressure to keep the skirt or base engaged in the rifling for 17.4 inches. Above the speed of sound, you have enough pressure to keep the base and skirt engaged, but after x distance, it falls below the speed of sound and starts hitting that air turbulence, causing the bullet to waffle about.

Yes, I need to order a passel of those 140-grain Sierras. The 125s, 158s, and 180s are no slouch either. Honestly, all of my best groups with this rifle have been with Sierra bullets, with Nosler 158's and Hornaday 180s coming in second place.

[Redthies]

As for yours,
I'd slug the barrel. Maybe it's prone to liking a certain size of jacketed bullets. (I suspect that's the case with my 45colt) IIRC 44mag and 45 colt at one point had barrels with some silly twist rates. Like 1 in 30.

My previous barrel was 1:38. The new one is the SAAMI spec 1:20. I’m going to try the heavier bullets in the next week or so. I still don’t understand what “slugging the barrel” is or does. Seems like something I shouldn’t have to do in what is essential a new gun?

[DsGrouse]

Slugging the barrel will show you the diamater of the barrel. Width and depth of the lands and grooves.

Someone more exp might chime in.
If i did barrel and it came back 0.453, id shoot 0.452 jacketed. And look for lead bullets to sized down to 0.453.

If it came in at 0.452, id look for 0.451 jacketed bullets. And 0.452 lead bullets.

If it came in a 0.451 or 0.454, i'd know why i was having such a dastardly time to get it to geoup.


My 45 colt is being picked up today. I am hoping the issues i have get fixed

[DsGrouse]

A review of Harrell's Precision's powder measure I wrote for my substack.

I'm writing a review of a company whose products have exceeded my expectations every time I've purchased them.

Harrell's Precision of Salem, Va.

https://www.harrellsprecision.com/

My first introduction to Harrell's Precision's offerings was 8 or 9 years ago. I'd just picked up an Anschutz MPR 22lr. Between my Kimber 82G and the Anni I was shooting several hundred rounds a day per gun.


The sad thing about both guns is they deserve a quality of ammo that makes shooting several hundred rounds a day difficult. As most shooters know, you are constantly balancing the budget to supply gear, ammo, and range time.

One of the best and simplest ways to improve upon bulk standard velocity 22lr ammo is by using a barrel tuner. If you are like me and order your 22lr several cases at a time, then a barrel tuner might be for you.

How does it work? Well, your barrels all have a harmonic balance; that balance is unique with each ammo brand and type you use. If you buy bulk 22lr you can use the tuner's click adjustment system to tune the barrel to that specific lot of ammo.

Once correctly tuned for that ammo, you can decrease the size of the shot dispersion. When looking at my old notes, it seems like I was able to take CCI standard velocity down from a 3/4" five-shot group at 70 yds to roughly 0.43 inches.

So yeah, Harrell's Precision Air rifle and Rimfire tuners are the bee's knees.

The second product of Harrell's Precision that I ran across is their Shuetzen/Pistol Measure. I started reloading in 2019, mostly because my kids were heading to college, and I felt that I finally had the time.


I've four other powder measures. One Lee auto drum deluxe, an RCBS Charge Master Supreme, Uniflow powder measure III, and for a short while, I used an older Redding model I borrowed from a friend.

So, what was my problem with these other powder measures? Consistency. The lee leaked fine ball powders and could throw as much as 0.5 grains off. The Charge Master Supreme hated fine ball powder as it would clump up, and the result was it constantly through light charges.

The Redding I borrowed and the Uniflow from RCBS was much better, but repeatability was damn difficult. What do I mean by that? Well, let's say I wanted to throw a charge of 8.0grains of CFE-P. Everything turned out great. I got the velocity I wanted, and the velocity spread and standard deviation were right on the money. Then, three months later, I want to recreate that load. I'd turn the adjustment screws to what as close as I could to 8.0, throw my charges, weigh them, and all would be good right?

It did not work that way in my experience. Ninety-five percent of my shooting is subsonic; I'm constantly loading for 1070 to 1080 fps. That's the sweet spot for my home. It allows me to shoot with cans and be much quieter for my neighbors.

What I found was that the nonrepeatable nature of other powder measure's screw adjustment would, not just could, throw the drop off by as much as + or - 0.2 grains. I found myself constantly chasing a consistent drop and being able to repeat that consistent drop weeks later.

I wanted something that would recreate that specific powder drop number, whatever that load happened to be. That's when I ran across Harrell's Precision again. Since the bulk of my reloading is sub-sonic, I knew I needed something that could drop fine ball powders. It also needed to be easily adjustable, with the ability to recreate repeatable drops.

Here is Harrell's Precisions statement on their Schuetzen/Pistol Powder measure.
https://www.harrellsprecision.com/produ ... -measure-1

"This measure was developed especially for throwing small charges from 2 to 25 grains very accurately. It IS the most accurate small charge powder measure ever produced. Each click is .03 grains, that's 1/3 of 1/10 grain per click. It is ideal for small rifles like the 17 calibers, 218 Bees, 22 Hornet, pistol and schuetzen rifles. It is not recommended for Black Powder. It comes complete with a 1.4" capacity mounting bracket, 2 drop tubes, and a bottle."

So, does it meet my requirements, and does it do precisely what their blurb says?

In answer to my requirements, yeah, it does. The ability to reproduce a drop weeks later is as simple as finding 8.0 grains of CFE-P. From there, I can fine-tune it. Because just like Harrell's Precision says, each click (more about the clicks in a moment) is roughly 0.03 grains of powder. I've tried a half dozen fine pistol powders, and most are throwing at 0.03 grains per click. I've one powder that is throwing closer to 0.04 grains per click.

About those clicks, they are audible, tactile, and as good as the finest scopes out there. We've dialed in our 8.0 grains of CFE-P, but we want to step up the load to 8.2 grains of CFE-P. Gaining that 0.2grains is a matter of six clicks. The math is simple and easy. An increase of 0.5 grains would be 15 clicks; check your drop and make any adjustments up or down as your scale demands. In nearly 100 separate loading sessions since I bought this powder measure, it's never been off more than two clicks. No matter how large of a change in charge weight.

The next thing I should make note of is how smooth it is. Yeah, it has their "finest double roller bearings construction." You have a sense that it won't be gritty, grindy, or stiff in any way. Their phrase, "finest double roller bearings construction," is the most polite and underwhelming way of saying that this powder measure lacks resistance. It's so smooth that the instructions come with the simple notation to use the exact same movements every time for consistency. It's so smooth that it is deceptive. More than once, I've found myself looking to the powder hopper to make sure I've enough powder in it to ensure a consistent drop.

It's reliable, repeatable, and more accurate with every drop than any of the other powder measures I have used. My previous Standard Deviations ranged from the 20s to the 50s, and that does not mention the pain of recreating loads. Now that I'm using the Schuetzen/Pistol powder measure my Standard Deviations range from 3 to 9. That accuracy in powder drop allows me to ride that very fine line of 1070 to 1080 fps each and every time I load.