So ... what's a "survival rifle" anyway?

[BMCTED]

I've had this question, "What's A Survival Rifle", on my mind for a very long time, maybe before Col. Jeff Cooper was coming up with his "Scout Rifle" concept.

In celebration and appreciation of Admin opening up a new forum aimed at ALL AR7 Survival Rifle enthusiasts, I thought I might like to throw this question out to everybody.

Just what do you think a "Survival Rifle" is and why? Please explain your ideas on what caliber(s) it should be chambered in, it's length, weight, construction materials, COST, operating system, features, needs, wants ... and anything else you can think of.

I'll hold my own ideas for a while to give everybody else a chance, but I do have an example of what some agency came up with that I will share.

[PBSnooker]

Coopers concept was a good idea. Mine is slightly different. A Ruger american ranch 5.56 bolt with a red dot and back up iron sights. A good compromise for many situations.

[Hatchdog]

I like the idea of a combination gun like the Savage M/24 with both a rifle barrel and a shot shell barrel. Caliber and gauge is a personal choice but I like a 22 caliber center fire and a 12 ga. Best of both worlds would be a .223 and 12 ga as ammo availability would be better with these two in a SHTF situation.

As far as the AR-7 is concerned, when I win the one in the prize pool this year I’ll report back.

[BMCTED]

As far as the AR-7 is concerned, when I win the one in the prize pool this year I’ll report back.

As many AR-7s as I've messed with, I've never had my hands on a new one from Rice Lake. They are VERY different. Maybe If you win, you'd let me take it apart, measure it, weigh it and photograph it. Of course I'd reassemble it and give it back!

If I win ... I'll let you look at the pictures of mine!

[Vaquero]

I'll just grab one of the AR's, large cap. mags to hold a lot of ammo, that is not that heavy carry with.
Good at dispatching 2 or 4 legged vermin.
Don't care anything about the AR7, if I was considering a 22lr, it would most likely be the Marlin model 60, or Ruger 10/22.
Bu in all actuality a darn ole Marlin 30-30 would work about as well, it's just the ammo could be a bit heavy.

RP

[BMCTED]

OK ... so in my first post I teased a story about a survival rifle made by an "agency". Well, the "agency" was the USSR Space Agency and the weapon wasn't actually a rifle. It was a hand gun. The motivation for this weapon was the disaster ridden flight of Alexei Leonov and Pavel Belyayev that started March 18, 1965. Part of the mission for this flight was the first "space walk" during which Leonov almost couldn't get back into the capsule. Most of the story of the flight can be found here: https://time.com/5802128/alexei-leonov- ... obstacles/.

I've read other accounts to confirm this telling. The entire flight was a disaster from start to finish that could have ended up in death many times. The Times story kinda ends with the cosmonauts landing miles and miles from the original site ... but it doesn't tell "the rest of the story". It turns out that Leonov and Belyayev really didn't think anybody would ever find them way out in the woods as they were. Worse, Leonov started thinking about some of the "wildlife" living where they landed. The fierce HUNGRY wildlife. And then he realized that the ONLY defense they had on board, was a Makarov pistol which was almost useless against anything in Siberia that wanted to kill and EAT them. Leonov didn't get much sleep while out in the woods. But they did make it home. And the very first thing that Leoniv did ... was scream at the Soviet Space Agency until they developed a weapon suitable for cosmonaut's defense against ANY predator should this EVER freakin' happen again.

The weapon they came up with is unbelievable BEAUTIFUL, if in my eyes only. It was called the TP 82, and nick-named "the wild boar". It was a pistol having 3 barrels, the upper two shotgun barrels used special 12.5×70 mm ammunition (40 gauge), and the lower single rifled barrel used 5.45×39mm rifle ammunition. Loadings for the shotgun ammo included shot, slugs, flares and flash-bang noise makers.

As I recall the barrels were short, very short. Maybe about 13 inches short, which made this handgun, well ... a handful, hence the nickname. To increase it's usefulness,and give it a bit of a butt-stock, along with the handgun came a machete which would attach to the stock ... something that would make ATF and FBI agents extremely grumpy today.

Speaking about federal agencies, I have seriously thought about building a copy of this firearm. I've collected as much information, photos, reports and drawings as I could find. The but is those federal agencies. Yes, I know about the NFA and how to register this sort of thing and etc ... but there is that big ol' but. You just can't tell these days which way the federal mop is gonna flop. I mentioned it on another web forum and got screamed at by a number of (ahem) "older" firearm owners and wabbit hunters for even thinking of such a thing. One old guy even wanted to know what my "motivation" was.

Anyoldways, if you're interested, there is a LOT of information about this interesting SURVIVAL firearm out there. Just do a search.

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LOOK >>> a holster!!! You don't have to carry the dang thing around like the AR-7. (Hint of things to come!)

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[Vaquero]

Well then .

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RP

[Rifletom]

This is going to get interesting. The first two certainly are. Didn't our military flight crews carry .45 autos?

[GeoBoy]

Mine is a Ruger 10/22 TD with a Magpul Backpacker stock and Trijicon RMR red dot.

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[BMCTED]

This is going to get interesting. The first two certainly are. Didn't our military flight crews carry .45 autos?

Yes and back in the day they also carried various revolvers, some Colts but also Smith & Wesson Victory .38s which were pretty much Model 10's. I own 2 of them and love them to death.

During Vietnam guys who flew Helicopters and small observation planes like the Birddog and others also carried M1a carbines or M16 and its variants among other things.

But SURVIVAL isn't just about shooting bad guys.

The problem with handguns and large caliber rifles as SURVIVAL guns is it's hard to get food with them. Also, there just isn't much rabbit or squirrel left after you shoot it with .38, .45acp or even 5.56 or .223. This is pretty much the reason for .22lr chambered survival weapons.

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[BrokenolMarine]

When I was part of the helo aircrew in the Corps, you could choose the handgun you carried, either the 38 snubby or 45. Most chose the easier to clean 38. Yes, I chose the .45.

[Shawlerbrook]

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articl ... paign=0516

[BMCTED]

I said I'd give my opinion after giving folks a shot. For me, the survival AMMO selection comes before the picking the survival rifle. I have a list of requirements.

The ammo must:

Be 100 % reliable every time.

Be widely available.

Be fairly inexpensive.

Be one shot knock down dead deadly at 10 feet and more than a mild annoyance at 100 yards.

Be deadly to both ALL food meat and every dangerous predator (including man) all the way up to brown bear of every type.

Be capable of being tailored to fit every shooter in my household. By this I mean, after they take the first shot, the shooter isn’t so hurt or scared they are still willing and comfortable enough to fire a second round.


I think that’s the definition of 12 gauge.


It’s available in 2 ¾, 3 and 3 ½ inch shells.

It’s available from 9 shot for the smallest bird all the way up to OOO buck shot and 1 ounce slugs.

Walmart sells 7s or 8s in 100 round boxes for under $40. I call that 100 meat meals in a box, or how to say “NO” 100 times. This ammo can be modified into wax slugs, or melt the lead and make 7/8th ounce slugs … or refill the hull with 6 - 00 buck pellets and make “cluster buck”, for a lo-recoil, good speed and ACCURATE 12 gauge surprise (check THIS out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q24gz_ZcYx4). You could make old fashioned cut shells, but I don‘t find them very accurate.

I know it’s heavy to carry, but I’d carry enough. I sure have enough stored.

As for the “installer”, or the gun to shoot it with, it can be almost ANY decently made reliable shotgun. Single shots are very good, 2 barrels are fine, I LOVE pumps, and semis are OK.

I prefer the shortest legal barrel length for good point-ability at home or in dense woods or brush.

I like a pair of sights on it with a ghost-ring on the rear end.

Add a sling, plastic stock and extended mag/tube as needed.

I have 2 Remington 870 pumps. One for shot, one with rifled barrel for deer slugs.

I don't much care that they don't float.

[BMCTED]

When I was part of the helo aircrew in the Corps, you could choose the handgun you carried, either the 38 snubby or 45. Most chose the easier to clean 38. Yes, I chose the .45.

I must be in the minority, I really never liked the .45. Although I don't have a very small hand, it just never fit correctly, and it was always on my mind that I wouldn't be able to push the strap safety in when I really needed it.

The military transitioned to the Beretta M9 before I went back into the service. I liked it so much, I bought one.

It's my understanding that qual scores went way up with 9mm. It's probably less intimidating then .45 ACP.

Yes, I own one, but it's only for my collection and it doesn't get shot much.

[220]

I like the idea of a combination gun like the Savage M/24 with both a rifle barrel and a shot shell barrel. Caliber and gauge is a personal choice but I like a 22 caliber center fire and a 12 ga. Best of both worlds would be a .223 and 12 ga as ammo availability would be better with these two in a SHTF situation.

Really depends on what the survival situation is, are you simply trying to keep yourself feed, does getting a feed take a back seat to protection from 4 or 2 legged preditors? The ideal tool will change constantly with the circumstances.

i have a savage in 22mag/20ga, can do just about everything but I dont carry it much as it is rarely the best tool for a specific job.
I wouldnt mind this cambering in a survival situation, 22mag is a great small game round and will drop medium and large game with well placed shots. A box of 50 22mag take up about as much room as half a dozen 223 something to keep in mind when weight and volume might be at a premium. 20ga isnt far behind the 12ga and a very good selection of shells available from small shot through to slugs and also offers weight and volume savings compared to the 12ga.

[Shawlerbrook]

When I think “survival” I think you are mobile and have to carry everything in your hands or on your back. If we are talking this, a 12 ga. shotgun is probably the closest to a “Swiss Army Knife” as you are going to get. Now if we are talking multiple weapons, I probably would add a 4” 357 mag revolver in a chest holster. It always gives me a tinge of uneasiness to have to plan based on being limited as to what weapons I can own but it is a fun endeavor.

[BMCTED]

When I think “survival” I think you are mobile and have to carry everything in your hands or on your back. If we are talking this, a 12 ga. shotgun is probably the closest to a “Swiss Army Knife” as you are going to get. Now if we are talking multiple weapons, I probably would add a 4” 357 mag revolver in a chest holster. It always gives me a tinge of uneasiness to have to plan based on being limited as to what weapons I can own but it is a fun endeavor.

Check, check and CHECK, my brother from another Mother!

BTW, that "Swiss army knife" comparison is a pretty snappy turn of phrase. I'm going to start using that one ... and, btw, I will ALWAYS give you full credit.

Just make sure that shotgun has a dang sling on it.

As for hand guns, I like my Beretta 92fs, but I LOVE my old S&W model 19 "Combat Magnum". Everybody seems to forget the very respectable hole it puts in something. And, although they tell me it can happen, I have NEVER seen a properly maintained revolver jam.

As for limiting myself, yep, this was just a discussion about "survival" rifles and for fun. For more serious use, my first choice is my Norinco SKS, but my AK's Springfield M1a, and almost anything from my collection of American military rifles from the last century fill the hand nicely and could get the job done. But, if someone were to come up into the hills where I live raising a ruckus,causing harm and intending evil, they will probably hear from the SKS.

[Shawlerbrook]

BMCTED, great minds think alike !

[roddy]

'Springfield' M6 Scout...22LR over 410. Strangely, made by CZ.

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[GunnyGene]

Just my thoughts on this:

The firearm, if any, has limited uses in survival depending on the specifics of the situation. In some situations you are the rabbit, not the wolf, and making a lot of noise may not be in your interests. A good knife, and some wire for snares, plus some knowledge of basic survival skills can serve you better, especially if you are the hunted, not the hunter.