Henry Rifle Forums

In new member "Brother Love's " post, he mentions and shows a 357 maximum, very long cartridge. Obviously, would not work in a revolver So, just wondering as an example, why will a 22 magnum not work in a 22 lr? I hope that's a reasonable question. If not, then just ignore.

markiver54 wrote:In new member "Brother Love's " post, he mentions and shows a 357 maximum, very long cartridge. Obviously, would not work in a revolver So, just wondering as an example, why will a 22 magnum not work in a 22 lr? I hope that's a reasonable question. If not, then just ignore.

A lot of people ask that question. The answer is that a .22wmr case is a slightly larger diameter, and it won't fit in a .22lr chamber. Approx .241, vs approx .230. Conversely, a .22 lr in a .22mag chamber is likely to split when fired.

I didn't know the specific answer to your Q, Mark. Glad Gunney got after it.

One thing I'm definitely sure of is that "there is no stupid question."
How else would you learn without asking
PT7

Thank you GunnyGene for a great explanation and thank you PT7 for your calming response!

markiver54 wrote:Thank you GunnyGene for a great explanation and thank you PT7 for your calming response!

The follow up question is usually "then why can you shoot .38 special in a .357 magnum, but not vice versa? " The answer there is that the .38 special bullet is .357 dia, (same as the .357 mag)and the cases are the same diameter, but different lengths. The .357 case being longer and therefore will not chamber in a .38 due to chamber depth, not case diameter. There's also a significant pressure difference between them. But you can fire a .38spc in a .357 chamber.

So why is a bullet that is .357 in dia. called a .38? Well, it gets even more interesting (and confusing for the uninitiated). Despite its name, the caliber of the .38 Special cartridge is actually .357 inches (36 caliber/9.07 mm), with the ".38" referring to the approximate diameter of the loaded brass case. This came about because the original .38-caliber cartridge, the .38 Short Colt, was designed for use in converted .36-caliber cap-and-ball Navy revolvers, which had cylindrical firing chambers of approximately 0.374-inch (9.5 mm) diameter, requiring heeled bullets, the exposed portion of which was the same diameter as the cartridge case.

GunnyGene wrote:

markiver54 wrote:Thank you GunnyGene for a great explanation and thank you PT7 for your calming response!

The follow up question is usually "then why can you shoot .38 special in a .357 magnum, but not vice versa? " The answer there is that the .38 special bullet is .357 dia, (same as the .357 mag)and the cases are the same diameter, but different lengths. The .357 case being longer and therefore will not chamber in a .38 due to chamber depth, not case diameter. There's also a significant pressure difference between them. But you can fire a .38spc in a .357 chamber.

So why is a bullet that is .357 in dia. called a .38? Well, it gets even more interesting (and confusing for the uninitiated). Despite its name, the caliber of the .38 Special cartridge is actually .357 inches (36 caliber/9.07 mm), with the ".38" referring to the approximate diameter of the loaded brass case. This came about because the original .38-caliber cartridge, the .38 Short Colt, was designed for use in converted .36-caliber cap-and-ball Navy revolvers, which had cylindrical firing chambers of approximately 0.374-inch (9.5 mm) diameter, requiring heeled bullets, the exposed portion of which was the same diameter as the cartridge case.

Wow! Thanks again Gunny! As old as I am, these are things I've thought about but never asked. I'm glad I did now.!!

markiver54 wrote:

GunnyGene wrote:

markiver54 wrote:Thank you GunnyGene for a great explanation and thank you PT7 for your calming response!

The follow up question is usually "then why can you shoot .38 special in a .357 magnum, but not vice versa? " The answer there is that the .38 special bullet is .357 dia, (same as the .357 mag)and the cases are the same diameter, but different lengths. The .357 case being longer and therefore will not chamber in a .38 due to chamber depth, not case diameter. There's also a significant pressure difference between them. But you can fire a .38spc in a .357 chamber.

So why is a bullet that is .357 in dia. called a .38? Well, it gets even more interesting (and confusing for the uninitiated). Despite its name, the caliber of the .38 Special cartridge is actually .357 inches (36 caliber/9.07 mm), with the ".38" referring to the approximate diameter of the loaded brass case. This came about because the original .38-caliber cartridge, the .38 Short Colt, was designed for use in converted .36-caliber cap-and-ball Navy revolvers, which had cylindrical firing chambers of approximately 0.374-inch (9.5 mm) diameter, requiring heeled bullets, the exposed portion of which was the same diameter as the cartridge case.

Wow! Thanks again Gunny! As old as I am, these are things I've thought about but never asked. I'm glad I did now.!!

This all kinda makes sense if you are into cap and ball revolvers and how they evolved into today's cartridges. In the above example, if you have a .36 cal Navy Colt cap and ball, you would use a .375" ball so that when you rammed it the sharp edge of the chamber will skin off a ring of lead and the ball will seat tightly in the chamber and still be large enough to pick up the rifling in the barrel.

I have a reproduction .44, and use a .457" ball for that reason.

Interesting indeed Gunny!! You should write a book. That is if you have not already. Thx!

markiver54 wrote:Interesting indeed Gunny!! You should write a book. That is if you have not already. Thx!

There's hundreds of books that have been written on the subject, and even a TV series or 2. I doubt I could contribute anything new, but thx. Here's a site you can download (free) many of the books: https://archive.org/details/texts . Just search for "History of Firearms" in the search box.

I'm always fascinated by the sheer scientific and engineering genius that got us from a magic powder several hundred years ago to the firearms and ammo we take for granted today. Personally, I think that very first pile of black powder that was lit off was probably a "Hold my beer and watch this." moment.

Appreciate the archive site link, Gunney.

I've briefly looked at it, and found one gun history book, which caught my interest: American Gun by Chris Kyle. Like the premise of this survey American history "represented" through ten American guns, from a flintlock to the sniper rifle he used in his job as a Navy SEAL. Kyle researched the firearms as relates to our history, and also shot each one. Sounds like an interesting read. Thanks.
PT7

PT7 wrote:Appreciate the archive site link, Gunney.

I've briefly looked at it, and found one gun history book, which caught my interest: American Gun by Chris Kyle. Like the premise of this survey American history "represented" through ten American guns, from a flintlock to the sniper rifle he used in his job as a Navy SEAL. Kyle researched the firearms as relates to our history, and also shot each one. Sounds like an interesting read. Thanks.
PT7

There's 2 issues of Kyles book on the site. One you can only "borrow", the other you can download and save. This is the one you can download in various formats:

https://archive.org/details/B-001-000-143/page/n7

GunnyGene wrote:

PT7 wrote:Appreciate the archive site link, Gunney.

I've briefly looked at it, and found one gun history book, which caught my interest: American Gun by Chris Kyle. Like the premise of this survey American history "represented" through ten American guns, from a flintlock to the sniper rifle he used in his job as a Navy SEAL. Kyle researched the firearms as relates to our history, and also shot each one. Sounds like an interesting read. Thanks.
PT7

There's 2 issues of Kyles book on the site. One you can only "borrow", the other you can download and save. This is the one you can download in various formats:

https://archive.org/details/B-001-000-143/page/n7

PS: The archive does this with many of their holdings, so it pays to look around for duplicates that you don't have to get in line to borrow.

Thanks for the link Gunny!

The 357 Maximum was, indeed, a revolver cartridge spawned by the sport of silhouette, back in the 80s. Both Dan Wesson and Ruger made revolvers for it that used extra long frames to accommodate the longer 357 Max cartridge. It became a very popular cartridge in the Contender and still is, to this day. Have owned a 357 Max Ruger and several 357 Max barrels for the Contender.

The 357 Max nearly went extinct because of a flame cutting problem on the top strap of the revolver. This was no inherent fault of the cartridge, however. It was caused by reloaders and even ammo companies offering 357 max loads using light 125 grain bullets, which greatly accelerated the problem. When used with the longer 158s or 180s, flame cutting on the top strap is no longer an issue with the Max. Sad to say, though, no one makes a 357 Max revolver, anymore.

Today, however, the Max is strictly a reloader's cartridge with no major ammo company offering it as a factory cartridge. Brass, though, is now available from Starline, last I heard.

The Max is a wonderful cartridge, by the way. Gets you up close to 44 mag energy levels without the recoil of a 44 mag. One of my first ever barrels for the 357 Max was a Contender. A friend who shot silhouette loaded the ammo for me. Great cartridge.

Ventura Heritage has it.
125gr JHP https://www.venturamunitions.com/ventur ... 50-rounds/
180gr https://www.venturamunitions.com/ventur ... 50-rounds/

We have some local cartridge makers that load the 357, too. Doubt you'll ever see the biggies back to loading it, though.

The simple answer is because the newer round usually works at much higher pressure which would be dangerous in older firearms. To prevent the possibility the designers usually lengthen the case slightly to prevent it being chambered in older guns.

Most of the experimentation that lead to the 357 and 44 magnums was simply loading the 38 and 44 specials to what would be dangerous pressure levels in the majority of guns. Simple solution lengthen the case slightly to prevent the new loads being accidentally used in old guns.

The majority of straight walled pistol cartridges went through this progression even the humble 22lr

22 short/22long/22long rifle
32sw/32swl/32hr mag/327fm
38sw/38spl/357mag/357max
44spl/44mag
45colt/454/460

The 22 magnum is a similar progression being a lengthen 22 Winchester rimfire loaded to higher pressure.

The 327, 357max & 460 are all relative recent additions with the case lengthen significantly and loaded to similar pressure to most rifle rounds in a bid to maximise performance.

Like has been pointed out the calibre designation on the 32s, 38's and 44's is confusing. This came about because the original cases they were designed on used a healed bullet like the 22 so the outside diameter of the case was the same size as the bullet. When loaded with a non healed bullet to the same case size the bullet is significantly smaller.

What a great discussion. I wondered where my S&W Long came from. It seems the 32 has a long and varied history. Thanks.

A very informative discussion. However you forgot the .44 American ,Russian and the .45 Scholfield and Auto rim.

Travlin wrote:A very informative discussion. However you forgot the .44 American ,Russian and the .45 Scholfield and Auto rim.

The american used a healed bullet so not really, the Russian for sure the 44 special and the rest did evolve from it.
The Schofield is interesting because the colt predates it, s&w schofields couldn't be chambered for the 45 colt so s&w pretty much shortened it to a length that would work in the Schofield.