Hunting with Copper Bullets

[CT_Shooter]

I just read a provocative article describing the preference for copper versus lead bullets for hunting as it pertains to both, the quality of the harvest and the greater impact that it has on the environment.

I've never hunted, so in that regard, this is simply an academic subject for me...at least, so far. I do hope to hunt; it's on my bucket list. Nonetheless, I also care about the environment and preserving wildlife, so it's a subject that I will continue to consider, whether I ever hunt or not.

I didn't know that thirty states now regulate lead bullets for hunting. What do you think about it? Why?

The article is interesting and presents arguments from both sides.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/24/us/a ... ndors.html

[JEBar]

color me as unconvinced ..... I will continue to use jacketed bullets

[Mistered]

What do I think about it?
I think it's a radical, progressively based action of which there is little 'hard' data to support it and most likely other 'ulterior' motives behind the ban.
The video of all the animals eating the elk carcass is very cute but what is this proving? Can the 'Wildlife Agencies' (or whoever is bent on the lead ban) PROVE they have captured and tested the animals eating on the carcass? Of course not - these animals eat, run off and will most likely never be identified as the ones eating on the carcass much less become test subjects.

And between 10 million and 20 million animals, including eagles, hawks, bears, vultures, ravens and coyotes, die each year not from being hunted, but from lead poisoning, according to the Humane Society.

And this number comes from where? Again have they tested each and every one of the 10-20 million animals to prove the died from lead poisoning?
AND something else not quite 'realistic' here. When a game animal is killed the animal (including its carcass) is brought home for eventual cutting and packing and the remains are most often disposed of in ways that do not put it back to the wild for other animals to eat. The guts of course are left in the woods and will be eaten but again there is no correlation to the animals in the video and any specific testing on them.

This part frosts me:

In 2012, a coalition of environmental groups sued the federal government in a bid to force the Environmental Protection Agency to regulate lead bullets under the Toxic Substances Control Act.

Lets see, when all else fails lets just sue to get what 'WE' want.

And one more thing:

On a recent day, Ms. Tompkins fed a bald eagle with an eight-foot wingspan that had been rescued. It had a blood lead level of 813 micrograms per deciliter. Anything above 10 micrograms per deciliter is considered especially dangerous, and even 3 micrograms per deciliter can increase an animal’s mortality rate.

Well, I don't know where this bird got the lead from because Eagles are BIRDS OF PREY - not scavengers - they kill what they eat so whatever this bird ate was alive and well prior to getting caught by the Eagle.

[CT_Shooter]

Well, I don't know where this bird got the lead from because Eagles are BIRDS OF PREY - not scavengers - they kill what they eat so whatever this bird ate was alive and well prior to getting caught by the Eagle.

Actually, Eagles are scavengers.

Bald eagles are also scavengers that will feed on carrion. If they see an opportunity, bald eagles may even steal food from other birds such as osprey.
https://www.nwf.org/Educational-Resourc ... Bald-Eagle

[BigAl52]

I use both but not for this reason. I use a Barnes TTSX in my 338 because it performs outstanding and I only use it for Elk hunting and just dont see spending the time to develop a load being worth it. They have done this with shotgun shells to no lead shot. Ive been loading for over 40 years and have exposed myself to alot of lead. Im still kickin at 66

[North Country Gal]

I do support banning lead for waterfowl hunting because mortality of waterfowl and other water birds from ingesting lead shot (and lead sinkers and jigs) is backed up by scientific research. And, yes, Bald Eagles are definitely carrion eaters and, in fact, often consume more carrion than live prey. Have watched them for hours, at a time, in the field, waiting nearby for a goose or other animal to die before before eating them. They are especially adept at cleaning up dead fish and waterfowl. On the other hand, Golden Eagles are ferocious hunters and tend much more toward live prey. Goldens would have been a much better choice for a national bird.

As for lead in the environment outside of wetlands and waterways, I've seen no scientific evidence that lead from shot or bullets is a major health concern. I think statewide blanket bans on the use of lead in hunting is too extreme, especially considering that lead cannot be absorbed though the skin, as is commonly thought. You have to ingest lead to have a problem.

As for consuming meat shot with lead bullets, I do think a lot of caution should be used and meat anywhere near a wound channel should be discarded. There is new information out that shows that more meat gets injected with small lead particles than we used to think when a deer has been shot. Certainly doesn't mean a ban should be placed on lead bullets, here, either, just that we need to inspect and be more careful when butchering game animals.

As for copper bullets, I, too, have had great accuracy with copper bullet loads in various guns, especially the Barnes stuff. Wouldn't feel at all disadvantaged having to use copper bullets. Would much prefer to have it be by choice, though.

[CT_Shooter]

A bit more to consider.

Lead’s properties make it the preferred material for ammunition. However, lead can be ingested or inhaled
and enter the body. When lead enters the bloodstream it can be harmful, affecting many body systems.

https://www.usashooting.org/library/You ... -_NSSF.pdf.

[North Country Gal]

Correct. It has to be inhaled or digested, thus the requirement for proper ventilation at indoor gun ranges.

[Ojaileveraction]

Birds of Prey are opportunists.
Benjamin Franklin suggested we use the Turkey as our National Bird because of the Bald Eagles scavenger tendencies.
Golden Eagles will go for dear carcass over chasing down a jackrabbit 100%.
Redtail hawks and other large buteos learn to look for road kill.
I personally have seen a Coopers Hawk try to drag off a road kill cotton tail easily twice his weight.
I don't find it far fetch at all that eagles, hawks and vultures would love to dine on a field of dead ground squirrels or prairie dogs left in a hay field after being killed by exploding lead bullets.
I've been witness to the care needed by Golden Eagles with high levels of lead in their blood.

I'm never going to stop using lead bullets for 99% of my shooting but for hunting "Lead free is the way to be"

[Yornoc3]

I remember reading that Teddy Roosevelt advocated changing our national symbol to the Grizzly Bear over the Bald Eagle, referring to the the eagle as a "dandified vulture". I'm using Hornady 250 grain Monoflex cartridges in my 45-70 for deer hunting, though, for two reasons: a bit lower recoil with very good accuracy, and 300 grain conventional lead bullets are a lot of lead (compared to a .243, for example) - so lead fragmentation, should I hit a shoulder, won't be an issue. So far on deer, one lung shot, one complete pass through. Of course, that's what's supposed to happen every time anyway, right?

[JEBar]

if I ever decided to hunt with a solid copper bullet, I would use Nosler's E-Tips ===> https://www.nosler.com/e-tip-lead-free-bullet .... the link provides good info on the E-Tips .... by scrolling down to the "Optimum Performance Velocity" section, you can find some interesting info on bullet weight retention .... the links below aren't the best I've seen but they do provide some basic info


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTbNG2UoJAI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzOSovvByT4

[Rifletom]

Here in Ca., we've been under the no lead ban in what is called the "Condor zone". Roughly about 1/4 of the state. Starting 7/1/2019 there will be a state wide ban on lead for all hunting. Everything. So far, target shooting isn't affected. So far. While I no longer hunt big game in Ca., it has affected upland bird hunting. So, I went with steel shot two years ago to get ready for 2019. All this hassle over a stinking vulture that was selected by nature to become extinct because it could not adapt like EVERY other carrion scrounger out there. Only the Ca condor has this issue. Nature had a plan, mankind intervened. Rant over.

[Ojaileveraction]

if I ever decided to hunt with a solid copper bullet, I would use Nosler's E-Tips ===> https://www.nosler.com/e-tip-lead-free-bullet .... the link provides good info on the E-Tips .... by scrolling down to the "Optimum Performance Velocity" section, you can find some interesting info on bullet weight retention .... the links below aren't the best I've seen but they do provide some basic info


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTbNG2UoJAI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzOSovvByT4

I've been looking for the optimal deer/pig bullet. I have 300 grain TSX FN for my 45-70 but I'd like something without that lob of a trajectory.

.243 has twist issues with many of the Cooper bullets.

30-30 has some choices but the effective distance is cut to 100yard.

35rem has a possible with a 140grain 357 all copper from Lehigh. It looks like it has a 35 caliber meplat.

[JEBar]

I just received an email from Shooter's Pro Shop saying that they have just gotten in a limited shipment of Nosler 180 gr 30 caliber E-Tip Blems (see link below) .... these Blems have cosmetic flaws but perform in all respects identical to their first line bullets .... SPS has them priced at $21.45 for 50 .... Cabela's prices the same first line T-Tips $38.99 .... for me these will be placed in stock to be loaded if/when I need deep penetrating, 30 caliber hunting bullets .... out of our 300 WBY Mag, they should be a devastating round



http://www.shootersproshop.com/nosler-p ... -50ct.html

[JEBar]

I've been looking for the optimal deer/pig bullet.

back in the mid 60's when I was searching for bear, boar and to lesser degree deer rifle, I settled on 30 caliber .... as one who loaded his own hunting and practice ammo, that was an easy choice .... back then and I still believe its true today, across the board most companies offered a wider range of bullets in 30 caliber than in any other caliber .... as such, I built a collection the included a 30-30, 308, 30-06, and 300 WBY .... with the 30-30 & 308 I decided to use 150 gr bullets, in the 30-06 to use 165 gr bullets, and in the 300 to use 180 gr .... the 30-30 didn't really fit with the the others because it requires round nose bullets .... when SPS gets 150 & 168 gr E-Tips back in stock I hope to pick up a few boxes of each to be loaded if/when appropriate for hunting .... the E-Tips work well with a rifle sighted in for Nosler's Ballistic Tips which are cheaper and with I load for range use

[Ojaileveraction]

I like everything about the Nosler Etip for 30-30. And the price for the blems is attractive.
This is speaking about California hunting.
I have a son in Texas. We may get it together and I feel I can depended on the different lead bullets in what ever configuration I already throw.

[JEBar]

attractive indeed .... as noted earlier in this thread, I'm neither hot or cold on the case against lead hunting bullets .... what I am sold on is the deep penetration and general performance of the E-Tips .... historically, Nosler's Partition has been a benchmark in bullet penetration ... I believe that the E-Tip offers even better penetration with higher weight retention .... I am somewhat in awe of that level of performance

[Ojaileveraction]

Just picked up a couple more boxes of these from my LGC.

$23

[JEBar]

that speed should turn the bullet into a hand grenade

[Ojaileveraction]

Got a small order of bullets from Midway today.
Some jacketed for the 35rem and a box of Nosler Etips for 30-30.
The Etips really look like they will do the job. No
Not that I do much hunting but now I feel prepared for the occasion.