Henry Rifle Forums

Out over the weekend for practice & 50yd sight in with .41mag 210gr Underwood XTP. That went well, so decided to put some 210gr SWC cowboy thru it just for fun. This was Georgia Arms ammo I bought several years ago, and have used in my Blackhawk without any problems.

I will NEVER DO THIS AGAIN! Shots with the SWC went about 6" high and right and it made a godawful mess in the barrel and receiver. Looked like I'd been shooting black powder. Took me about an hour to clean it up. No leading, but it was really dirty powder, and I wasn't expecting it to shoot as badly as it did, accuracy wise. At least I didn't get stupid and do any sight adjustments based on it.

Looked like I'd been shooting black powder.

I thought this part was interesting as I have never seen any smokless powder leave reside like you described so I looked at Underwood's website and saw this:

As with all of Underwood Ammo™ rounds, we utilize flash suppressed powder so that your vision will not be compromised if it becomes necessary to use your firearm in low light.

I have no idea what 'flash suppressed powder' is but I cannot believe whatever it is burns completely if it is reducing the flash as they advertise and therefore leaving the residue as you describe.
I also have a REAL hard time with this:

Muzzle Velocity: 1560 fps

This is quite high and unless they chrono'd it out of a rifle I cannot believe they are getting this high of velocity.
My reloading manuals do not show a velocity this high on any loads out of a handgun.

I bet you’re on to something there Mred.

Mistered wrote:

Looked like I'd been shooting black powder.

I thought this part was interesting as I have never seen any smokless powder leave reside like you described so I looked at Underwood's website and saw this:

As with all of Underwood Ammo™ rounds, we utilize flash suppressed powder so that your vision will not be compromised if it becomes necessary to use your firearm in low light.

I have no idea what 'flash suppressed powder' is but I cannot believe whatever it is burns completely if it is reducing the flash as they advertise and therefore leaving the residue as you describe.
I also have a REAL hard time with this:

Muzzle Velocity: 1560 fps

This is quite high and unless they chrono'd it out of a rifle I cannot believe they are getting this high of velocity.
My reloading manuals do not show a velocity this high on any loads out of a handgun.

I've been using Underwood for about 10 years. It's a clean, fast burning burning powder that is extensively used in pistol ammo, and had nothing to do with the mess made by the GA SWC. I don't know the exact chemical composition of it, however. As for MV, their listed MV is accurate out of my 6.5" Blackhawk.

and had nothing to do with the mess made by the GA SWC.

I overlooked this part - (it's early here in Oregon!) so retract everything I said except the part about he MV.
Still seems pretty high.

Mistered wrote:

and had nothing to do with the mess made by the GA SWC.

I overlooked this part - (it's early here in Oregon!) so retract everything I said except the part about he MV.
Still seems pretty high.

I guess I don't know what to tell you about your doubts concerning MV of the Underwood, other than to say that when I first considered using it I also had some doubts, but they had good reviews, and I talked with the owner also. Bought a box to try it out. Their test gun was also a 6.5" Blackhawk, and when I chronoed it in mine it was consistently within 10fps of their stated mv (actually a bit faster) This was several years ago, when the price was about 65cents/round so I ended up buying several hundred rounds, and haven't looked back. It's excellent ammo. You should try it if you shoot .41, or any of their other calibers of your choice.

Don't know if this is accurate or not, but an internet search find indicates that "Ammunition doesn't expire, but the gunpowder looses potency over time." Maybe why the dirty firing. Also found heat and humidity accelerate loss of potency. An example given was leaving ammo in a hot and/or humid car. Another find, expected 'good' shelf life of 10 years.

GunnyGene wrote:...This was several years ago, when the price was about 65cents/round so I ended up buying several hundred rounds, and haven't looked back.

Mags wrote:Don't know if this is accurate or not, but an internet search find indicates that "Ammunition doesn't expire, but the gunpowder looses potency over time." Maybe why the dirty firing. Also found heat and humidity accelerate loss of potency. An example given was leaving ammo in a hot and/or humid car. Another find, expected 'good' shelf life of 10 years.

GunnyGene wrote:...This was several years ago, when the price was about 65cents/round so I ended up buying several hundred rounds, and haven't looked back.

Perhaps with the GA ammo, but as I said earlier, I've never had a problem with the Underwood. Not years ago and not in the last 2 weeks. Nor do I leave any ammo in vehicles or some other place which is subject to extremes of heat and humidity.

As a side note, I wish y'all would accept what I said about the GA ammo and quit trying to lay the blame elsewhere. I've been shooting for 60+ plus years including 20+ in the USMC, and I do know a bit about it.

GunnyGene wrote: I wish y'all would accept what I said about the GA ammo and quit trying to lay the blame elsewhere. I've been shooting for 60+ plus years including 20+ in the USMC, and I do know a bit about it.

These folks are not trying to challenge your experience or knowledge. They simply want to help.

GunnyGene wrote:...As a side note, I wish y'all would accept what I said about the GA ammo and quit trying to lay the blame elsewhere. I've been shooting for 60+ plus years including 20+ in the USMC, and I do know a bit about it.

We can accept that. Keep in mind though that what you share, can get you both helpful and clueless responses. Be mindful of that in what you share and forgiving of the responses.

CT_Shooter wrote:

GunnyGene wrote: I wish y'all would accept what I said about the GA ammo and quit trying to lay the blame elsewhere. I've been shooting for 60+ plus years including 20+ in the USMC, and I do know a bit about it.

These folks are not trying to challenge your experience or knowledge. They simply want to help.

I know that, which is why I tried to be courteous and gentle with that comment.

GunnyGene

thanks for mentioning Georgia Arms Ammo .... I'd never heard of them so I did a bit of research .... from what I could tell, they seem to be a well known outfit .... in recent times I've noted that the powder being used in Winchester Super Target 2.75" 12-Gauge Shotshells we use for trap shooting seems to leave our shotguns really dirty .... in trying to figure out why, I considered the fact that for the last couple of years we have used Ballistol to clean and lub our firearms .... it does a great job and I have no interest in using anything else .... that said I can't help but wonder if some cleaning liquids trap more residue than others .... do you have any thoughts in this area

JEBar wrote:GunnyGene

thanks for mentioning Georgia Arms Ammo .... I'd never heard of them so I did a bit of research .... from what I could tell, they seem to be a well known outfit .... in recent times I've noted that the powder being used in Winchester Super Target 2.75" 12-Gauge Shotshells we use for trap shooting seems to leave our shotguns really dirty .... in trying to figure out why, I considered the fact that for the last couple of years we have used Ballistol to clean and lub our firearms .... it does a great job and I have no interest in using anything else .... that said I can't help but wonder if some cleaning liquids trap more residue than others .... do you have any thoughts in this area

Never used Ballistol, so can't comment on that, and don't do much shotgunning. That said, I've used Hoppes solvent for decades and it works as well as anything else unless you have excessive lead or copper fouling, in which case a quality solvent specific to that problem should be used with a non-metallic brush. I use Blue Wonder, but only when the fouling is severe enough to affect accuracy and I don't overdo it. Bore cleaning should be tied to accuracy degradation - see this: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... vDCIcEPxUn . Although Rex is specific to ELR rifles, the general principle applies across the board. Scroll down on the playlist to around Parts 37 - 41 or so. In particular part 41. If all you need to do is wipe the powder residue out then a dry patch is all that's needed. Too aggressive cleaning is just as bad as not enough.

I know the above is more geared towards rifled barrels, than smooth bores, but maybe it will help some.

As for lube, it depends on the firearm and the conditions in which you use it. Many greases (for slides, bolts, and such) don't work well in weather extremes. They either get stiff and gummy in very low temps, or runny and make a mess in hot weather. Oils are much the same, but like grease attract carbon, etc. Not a big deal for the range, since you should be cleaning after a range trip, but for long hunts (or combat) when you don't have the luxury of regular cleaning, I prefer a dry lube. My preference for dry lubes is Hornady One Shot.

while using different products, we are operating on pretty much the same theory .... from reading your opening post, what I was wondering if you have recently changed any of your cleaning/lubing products ... if so, I can see how that might be a factor in the unexpected buildup .... that doesn't seem to be the case so I have no clue why there has been such a big change in residue

JEBar wrote: that doesn't seem to be the case so I have no clue why there has been such a big change in residue

Neither do I. Nothing changed between the shots with the Underwood and those with the SWC. Absolutely nothing - both were shot in the same session at the same range and the same POA. The only difference was the ammo itself. Which is why I was so surprised. I did expect some minor difference in POI, but nothing like I experienced. Oh, well. In the big picture it was a one-time minor irritation and won't be repeated. Life goes on.

just curious, I can understand the point of impact changing from one brand to another .... how well did they group ..

and when I chronoed it in mine it was consistently within 10fps of their stated mv (actually a bit faster)

Ok - you didn’t mention in your first post you chronoed them but if you did and that’s what the MV is then all the better!

JEBar wrote:just curious, I can understand the point of impact changing from one brand to another .... how well did they group ..

The Underwood was a lot tighter - about 2 1/2". SWC looked like a 00 buck pattern. The only thing it had going for it was a soft recoil.

Mistered wrote:

and when I chronoed it in mine it was consistently within 10fps of their stated mv (actually a bit faster)

Ok - you didn’t mention in your first post you chronoed them but if you did and that’s what the MV is then all the better!

Sorry 'bout that. I tend to assume (yeah I know) that folks who experiment with unfamiliar ammo, or reload, do that as a matter of course. I don't reload, but I have a couple friends who are constantly working up different loads and have chrono's they let me borrow occasionally.

Sorry 'bout that. I tend to assume (yeah I know) that folks who experiment with unfamiliar ammo, or reload, do that as a matter of course.

You would be surprised at the number of reloaders who do NOT have a chrono - me for one.
I have really never felt the need for one as I load for accuracy & what I plan to use the round for and really, velocity is really not an issue. Lets say I am loading a .223 round for varmint and the manual for the load says (for example) 3200 FPS then so be it. The important thing is accuracy - not how fast the bullet is going.