Big Boy 45 colt Hot ammo

[FlyingFinn]

My apologies for being too lazy to search.

As I (anxiously) await a call from my LGS telling me my BB has arrived (day 11), I'm contemplating ammo choices.

Does Henry warn against using using "hot" ammunition? Such as Buffalo Bore.

[GunnyGene]

Don't know about .45 colt, but I've had no problems with Underwood .41 mag which is the same advertised "hotness" as Buffalo bore for identical weight bullets. My BBSC likes it hot.

[North Country Gal]

Henry is a member of SAAMI and therefore cannot endorse any ammunition that is not SAAMI recognized and at this point there is no SAAMI recognized 45 +P ammo. Buffalo Bore does make some warm SAAMI 45 Colt loads, but any ammo BB labels as 45 Colt +P cannot be endorsed by Henry or any other member of SAAMI and that includes all major gun manufacturers. For instance, Ruger won't even endorse 45 Colt "Ruger only" loads that fall out side 45 Colt SAAMI specs.

Note that Buffalo Bore is not a member of SAAMI.

Also note that no member of SAAMI can even approve or endorse the use of reloads in their guns because you, as a private reloader, are not a member of SAAMI. To do so would open them up to serious liability issues and violate their SAAMI membership.

[Vaquero]

Don't know about .45 colt, but I've had no problems with Underwood .41 mag which is the same advertised "hotness" as Buffalo bore for identical weight bullets. My BBSC likes it hot.

My BBS and Underwoods 265's, yep mine likes some hot stuff also.

20190921_113521.jpg

Sorry wrong pic. here's the Underwoods


RP

20190921_112929.jpg

[JEBar]

Does Henry warn against using using "hot" ammunition? Such as Buffalo Bore.

NCG's (North Country Gal) response is dead on the money .... for reasons of legal liability, Henry not only can't recommend ammo not certified to meet SAAMI specs, they must advise against not doing so .... that most certainly includes our handloads; as well as, everyone else's .... those of us who load our own ammo are doing so at our own risk .... the same would be true about firing factory manufactured ammo loaded by companies who aren't members of ASSMI .... Buffalo Bore is such a company .... they have been in business since the late 90's and have built a solid reputation in the shooting circles I'm aware of .... we don't fire any factory centerfire bullets, our firearms don't even know that factory ammo exist .. .. if you have concerns, I'd recommend you call Buffalo Bore

[RanchRoper]

Be careful of those "hold my beer and watch this" moments....stay safe out there.

[GunnyGene]

Don't know about .45 colt, but I've had no problems with Underwood .41 mag which is the same advertised "hotness" as Buffalo bore for identical weight bullets. My BBSC likes it hot.

My BBS and Underwoods 265's, yep mine likes some hot stuff also.

20190921_113521.jpg

RP

Here's an interesting bit of SAAMI history for the .45 Colt example.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... list&c=164

SAAMI

First, it may help to understand why SAAMI operates or even exists. SAAMI standardizes tolerances for both guns and ammunition in America and other countries reference SAAMI these days as well. When a gun manufacturer makes any type of firearm, they can simply look at SAAMI specifications for chamber dimensions and know that if they make their firearms within those specs., that all SAAMI compliant ammo will be safe to fire and should be functional within those tolerances. So SAAMI, for arms and ammo makers, has become the standard maker. This is a great idea on its face, but read on.

As one (Only one) example of the potential problems with SAAMI compliance, let’s take a look at the 45 Colt cartridge (Also known as 45 Long Colt). In the 1870’s, gun makers such as Colt, started to make guns chambered in 45 Colt. Metallurgy and firearms design in those days centered around the use of low pressured black powder ammunition as smokeless powder was still decades from being invented……Because many of those old revolvers are very weak in both design and metallurgy and are still in existence all around the world, SAAMI says that all 45 Colt ammunition should be relegated to the pressures that black powder produces in that cartridge, hence the SAAMI limitation of 14,000 CUP for the 45 Colt ammunition. However, today, most every firearms makers that manufacture revolvers or rifles chambered in 45 Colt, have designed guns with modern metallurgy that will safely withstand far more than double the old SAAMI specified chamber pressures. Ruger was the first maker (in the 1970’s) of large framed 45 Colt revolvers that would easily withstand a steady indefinite ammunition diet of 32,000 CUP. When compared to the SAAMI standard of 14,000 CUP, 32,000 CUP ammo is truly high performance and is capable of killing animals upwards of 2,000 lbs., such as buffalo. In the 80’s and 90’s, the major loading manuals such as those published by Speer, Sierra, Hodgdon, etc., started to publish reloading data for different pressure levels of 45 Colt ammunition, depending the gun you intended to use. Stronger guns such as the Marlin 1894, Winchester 1894, Ruger Blackhawk, etc., (please read my essay on “Ruger Revolvers And 45 Colt+P Ammunition”) could all withstand the more powerful 45 Colt ammo loaded to 32,000 CUP. Then along came the forward looking ammo companies such as Cor Bon or Buffalo Bore that started making 45 Colt ammo loaded to 32,000 CUP, just for use in those modern stronger firearms that can safely facilitate such ammunition. But (there has to be a but) SAAMI still will not recognize that the 45 Colt cartridge can be loaded to any pressure level above 14,000 CUP!!!!

Everything in that above paragraph that is stated about 45 Colt ammunition, could also be said of modern 45-70, 38-55, etc. ammunition, and many other cartridges as well.

LITIGIOUS USA

To further understand the dynamics of manufacturing or selling ANYTHING in America; America happens to have become a nation where folks refuse to take any responsibility for their choices/actions and will sue over almost anything. It seems that almost everybody wants to blame somebody else for their ignorance or mistakes. This puts manufacturers of anything in a very difficult position. So, when Joe Customer calls a gun manufacturer and asks about what types of ammunition is safe to use in their particular make and model (insert any) of gun, to limit their liability, they will say to use only SAAMI compliant ammunition………….this is the stance manufacturers have to take in today’s lawsuit happy environment. However, the gun they are being asked about may have been designed to withstand ammunition pressures that far exceed the old SAAMI standards for firearms designed around using low pressure black powder. This is very confusing to customers who do not understand the dynamics of manufacturing in America or the history of firearms or ammunition development. Most shooters simply want to shoot and enjoy their sport, so all of this is very confusing to them.

Another side-effect of our litigious society is almost all major ammo makers “down load” or “water down” ammo to fall far below SAAMI pressure specs………..so the end using customer gets very weak ammo that cannot cause a problem in any gun, even if the barrel is full of rain water or if any other number of user errors exist…….nobody wants to be sued! Welcome to today’s attorney driven America where products are designed around liability concerns…….other concerns such as performance and even quality, take a back seat to liability concerns and the customer is the one who gets weak or inferior products as a result. This is not how America became the world’s leader in industry, but this is the situation America labors under today.

[FlyingFinn]

Thanks All!

Thanks GunnyGene! I had read the SAAMI history before and couldn't remember where I had found that info. I read about that when I began reloading for the 45 Colt. I dove pretty deep down a rabbit hole last year with my Ruger Vaquero (large frame) 45 Colt last year. Cylinder throat dimensions drove me nuts! I ended up reaming my own to correct "within specs" deficiencies. ie. 4 undersized and 2 oval

I've reloaded for a while now and have been down the 44 mag; Ruger Super Blackhawk/Marlin 1894 road. I will proceed with caution as I was taught.

I found the 45 Colt history to be interesting and frustrating with regard to manufacturing of the firearm and ammunition per SAAMI specifications.

Not looking to burn the barrel out or compromise structural integrity. Just not interested in black powder or cowboy action shooting performance. No offense intended to those that are.

[GunnyGene]

Thanks All!

Thanks GunnyGene! I had read the SAAMI history before and couldn't remember where I had found that info. I read about that when I began reloading for the 45 Colt. I dove pretty deep down a rabbit hole last year with my Ruger Vaquero (large frame) 45 Colt last year. Cylinder throat dimensions drove me nuts! I ended up reaming my own to correct "within specs" deficiencies. ie. 4 undersized and 2 oval

I've reloaded for a while now and have been down the 44 mag; Ruger Super Blackhawk/Marlin 1894 road. I will proceed with caution as I was taught.

I found the 45 Colt history to be interesting and frustrating with regard to manufacturing of the firearm and ammunition per SAAMI specifications.

Not looking to burn the barrel out or compromise structural integrity. Just not interested in black powder or cowboy action shooting performance. No offense intended to those that are.

I'm sure you and other reloaders know more about the subject than I do. All I know is a few tidbits I've picked up from time to time - just enough to make me dangerous.

[GunnyGene]

Thanks All!

Thanks GunnyGene! I had read the SAAMI history before and couldn't remember where I had found that info. I read about that when I began reloading for the 45 Colt. I dove pretty deep down a rabbit hole last year with my Ruger Vaquero (large frame) 45 Colt last year. Cylinder throat dimensions drove me nuts! I ended up reaming my own to correct "within specs" deficiencies. ie. 4 undersized and 2 oval

I've reloaded for a while now and have been down the 44 mag; Ruger Super Blackhawk/Marlin 1894 road. I will proceed with caution as I was taught.

I found the 45 Colt history to be interesting and frustrating with regard to manufacturing of the firearm and ammunition per SAAMI specifications.

Not looking to burn the barrel out or compromise structural integrity. Just not interested in black powder or cowboy action shooting performance. No offense intended to those that are.

I'm sure you and other reloaders know more about the subject than I do. All I know is a few tidbits I've picked up from time to time - just enough to make me dangerous. Now, if you want to know how to pick the right tactical nuke for a particular target, I could probably help with that - I been trained.

[FlyingFinn]

Well Gunny, I may need some of that right size nuke info. But I'll probably start another topic for that one!

I may have reloaded off and on for a number of years. But I certainly claim no level of expertise. I'm alwayz learnin'!

I am surprised to learn in this thread that Buffalo Bore is NOT a member of SAAMI.

Hard to understand from my ignorant self of a gun buyer and user, that at least Ruger has not "lobbied" SAAMI to revisit the 45 Colt specs. Maybe Henry RA can carry that torch. If my fuzzy memories serves me correctly, I read that the SAAMI specs WERE updated to modern smokeless powders for the 45 Colt caliber in the 1950's!!

[fortyshooter]

I shoot 250-255 gr. cast lead bullets loaded with 8 to 8.5 gr. of Unique in my "weaker built" 1873 Uberti rifle .45 Colt and it is a good load that shoots well and has some punch. 9 gr. load same bullet would be fine in a beefier Henry action and easy to shoot and would take care of most field issues.

[GunnyGene]

Well Gunny, I may need some of that right size nuke info. But I'll probably start another topic for that one!

I may have reloaded off and on for a number of years. But I certainly claim no level of expertise. I'm alwayz learnin'!

I am surprised to learn in this thread that Buffalo Bore is NOT a member of SAAMI.

Hard to understand from my ignorant self of a gun buyer and user, that at least Ruger has not "lobbied" SAAMI to revisit the 45 Colt specs. Maybe Henry RA can carry that torch. If my fuzzy memories serves me correctly, I read that the SAAMI specs WERE updated to modern smokeless powders for the 45 Colt caliber in the 1950's!!

Could be. I googled SAAMI, and the last edition was 2016. But I have no clue what that consisted of in detail. https://saami.org/

[wvhills]

hope this link works, its from buffalo bore's website, you can select the ammo and click "more info"
this is on the 45 colt deer grenade, https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=335
on the "Heavy" ammo they state its too long to cycle thru the Big Boy

i am pretty sure i also emailed Henry and asked about the Buffalo bore and underwood ammo for use in a BB, but dang if i can find it.. and don't want to guess what the response was..

i have not used it, loading some 270saa to the mid range pressure level, first batch was too long for the henry and had to single feed it, am deciding if i want to work on the internals of the Henry or not, but seating deeper will increase pressure, unless i reduce powder, working up a load for the Henry and my Blackhawk,,,, anyway sorry for the side track, thats all coming later... point is i have not shot the Buffalo Bore mentioned above, but i would. they also have some good tech articles in the "catagories" tab..

stay safe, as always, its your call
regards

[Travlin]

I have trouble understanding why one would buy a .45 Colt rifle and then at least think about loading it to perform like a .44 Magnum. The original 45 Colt case had a smaller rim that the ones we have today. At that time it didn't matter because the Colt revolvers that were chambered for the .45 round used a rod ejector. When colt started making the New Service double action revolver there was trouble with the extractor star slipping off of the excuse for a rim so the cartridge got a healthier rim. The old cases were of the "balloon head" design and would hold 40 grains of black powder and until the .357 came along in 1935 the big Colt round was about as good as it got from a revolver. The .44 Magnum case was designed from the start as a high pressure round. Elmer Keith and the boys at Remington and Smith and Wesson knew what they were doing.

[Chucksolo1]

Factory "Cowboy" loads are really accurate in both my BB Steel and my Armi San Marco SAA. Full power loads are fun to shoot in my BBS, but not so much in my six shooter. I love the .45 Colt cartrudge.

[Chucksolo1]

Cowboy loads shoot great in my BBS and SAA, but full power loads are NOT fun to shoot in my six shooter. Back in the day, my brother and I loaded up some .45 Colt shells at very mild power. Chronograph showed them to be at 725-750 fps. On a sunny day, you could see the bullet travel to the target. Ammo was extremely accurate to 100 yards, Unfortunately I can't remember the loading data as it was back in the early '80s!

[JEBar]

that's pretty much the same place I am in loading for our 44 Mags .... full power loads out of our Redhawk are painful to fire (arthritis) .... out of or BBS they are fun to fire .... I'm working on a light load for the Redhawk

[fortyshooter]

Cowboy loads are certainly not like the original Colt .45 load which with BP was a 250-255 gr. bullet going 850-900 FPS.
With Unique powder you can duplicate that load with 8 to 9 gr. and stay within the top of the 14,000 PSI level for Colt 45 which is safe for all modern
firearms rated for smokeless powder Colt 45.
Cowboy Action loads are milder at around 750 FPS for the Cowboy Action shooting sport where you want a low recoil round for faster repeated and accurate shots.
From what I hear the Henry lever action is same in design as the Marlin which is strong. I wouldn't see any issue with the Ruger Blackhawk type loads in a Henry rifle but NOT the 1860 Henry type or the 1873 Winchester type.

[Rifletom]

Cowboy loads are certainly not like the original Colt .45 load which with BP was a 250-255 gr. bullet going 850-900 FPS.
With Unique powder you can duplicate that load with 8 to 9 gr. and stay within the top of the 14,000 PSI level for Colt 45 which is safe for all modern
firearms rated for smokeless powder Colt 45.
Cowboy Action loads are milder at around 750 FPS for the Cowboy Action shooting sport where you want a low recoil round for faster repeated and accurate shots.
From what I hear the Henry lever action is same in design as the Marlin which is strong. I wouldn't see any issue with the Ruger Blackhawk type loads in a Henry rifle but NOT the 1860 Henry type or the 1873 Winchester type.

forty, I couldn't agree more. Just as a forum example, look at my .45 Colt loads: 250gr rnfp and 8.0gr Unique. Right about 1025-1050 fps from a 20" barrel(chronographed). Then, RR's load in his 1860 Uberti Henry. 7.0 gr Universal and a 200, sometimes 250 gr cast bullet. He's probably getting about the same MV. Not sure what his barrel length is, but, we are both on safe ground.
I won't be loading my .45 Colt any warmer than that. Any hotter, .44 mag is the answer.