Long range ballistics question

[LeverLover]

I am looking for a budget semi-long range rifle and am wondering if any of you can shed some light on rifle ballistics. I have and love the .357 which has decent ballistics out to 100+ yards and am looking for a comparison with it and the common .223 and 30-30. I know these are completely different animals. The .223 is a light weight high velocity round and the 30-30 is a slower heavy round. Discounting the disparity of platform and assuming the .357 from a rifle loses its punch past 100 yards, which delivers the best power/drop ratio at 200 yards? Please stay on topic and do not suggest 7.62, 30-06, .308, etc. since I won't use a right-handed bolt action and don't need 30 round magazines.

[JEBar]

would you be interested in a Henry Long Ranger ?

[LeverLover]

Sweet rifle and the same price point as a Mini 14 or mid range AR15. How does a .223 stack up against the .357 from a rifle?

[JEBar]

How does a .223 stack up against the .357 from a rifle?

223 bullets range in size from about 35 gr to about 60 gr .... it is a high speed round that would have a much flatter trajectory and much longer range .... I admit to being firmly old school and I've seen too many deer crippled/wounded with small bullets .... I have no doubt that some folks will/do hunt deer size game with a 223 but I wouldn't do so .... a 357 bullet runs from 125 to 158 grains, I prefer 158 .... over the last 30 years our family has taken a bunch of them with 357 Ruger GP100's at ranges out to something under 50 yards .... with our Henry rifle, 100 yards isn't an issue

[Squatch]

357 and the 30-30 have very similar ballistics out to about 100 yds. After that the 30-30 has the edge to 150 or so.

There is a reason the 30-30 has been one of the most effective and popular deer rifles for over 100 years.

In some states the .223 is not legal for deer. The power factor of the light bullet is to low.

Here is an interesting read for you.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/0 ... 57-magnum/

[ditto1958]

OP, an AR-15 with heavy match ammo- and a 5 or 10 round magazine- can be an extremely accurate rifle out to 500-600 yards.

The 30-30 is under-rated as a longer range cartridge. While it's definitely not a 500 yard caliber, out to 200 yards it can be just fine. Using Hornady Leverevolution ammo helps for longer shots. Also, even when using a tube magazine gun, such as a lever action rifle, you CAN use spire tipped bullets for 30-30 IF you load them one or two at a time.

Also, the Henry Long Ranger, as others have suggested, lets you have an ambidextrous gun that will shoot pointy bullet calibers. Browning BLR and Savage 99 are other options that do the same.

[LeverLover]

Here is what I got from it :
Caliber MV ME
.357 (158gr) 1451 739
.357 (125gr) 2038 1153
.223 (55gr) 3240 1282
30-30 (150gr) 2390 1902

.357 (125gr) and .223 (55gr) start with about the same muzzle energy and ballistics take over from there. It looks like I want the 30-30 instead of the .223 when I want to reach out and touch more than paper. The .223 gives distance, the 30-30 gives energy.

[JEBar]

It looks like I want the 30-30 instead of the .223 when I want to reach out and touch more than paper. The .223 gives distance, the 30-30 gives energy.

agree with your assessment

[North Country Gal]

As much as old traditional me loves the 30-30 and always will, my vote is for the 223. Don't break out the flame throwers, yet.

The problem with these velocity versus energy discussions for hunting is that they don't take into account other very important factors and one of those is bullet design and construction. This has been a huge game changer not only for self-defense rounds, but also hunting rounds.

Overlooked in these traditional 223 for deer hunting discussions are all the 223 loads and bullets now specifically designed for deer hunting. Hasn't always been this way. A lot of the old school prejudice against the 22 cal for deer hunting was based on the fact that people were using inappropriate bullet designs such as varmint bullets or FMJs simply because there were no 22 cal bullets available at the time designed for larger game. We now have a number of factory 223 loads in the 60 to 70 grains plus weight range that offer controlled expansion bullets for use in deer hunting. They do an excellent job of retaining their bullet weight. Some of these heavier super 223 bullets need the proper twist to shoot at their best, but they are effective for deer. I know several local hunters who use these deer specific 223 loads for deer hunting and have had no complaints. I also know of several instances of game managers in other states that now using these 223 loads for culling deer in areas where they have become a problem. In other words, out to 200 yards, I think the right 223 load will do a fine job for deer and offer much flatter trajectory to boot. Then, too, you still get a great cartridge for both varmint hunting and target work, something that is a bit more of a stretch for the 30-30. The 223 is definitely the more versatile cartridge. Besides, if you want to use big heavy bullets, the 357 has you well covered with some 180 grain plus stuff.

It's also the cheaper cartridge to shoot, by far. The 223 is a clear winner in terms of ammo costs, whether you go factory or reload. We are now factory only (no more reloading for us) and the 223 is our mainstay centerfire rifle cartridge. We buy bulk 223 factory ammo for half the price of factory 30-30 and even this bulk 223 stuff shoots smaller groups than most 30-30 factory rounds at 100 yards. 223 factory ammo is everywhere. If you reload, you can get all the brass you want for free just by heading to the nearest range after guys with their ARs get done shooting.

Lastly, did I mention how pleasant to shoot the 223 is? Even in our 5 pound featherlight Contender Carbine, 223 recoil is never an issue. Shoot a 30-30 in a 5 pound carbine and you'll be surprised at the recoil.

Flame away.

[Oksrt]

While I like shooting 69 gr bullets at 3000 fps in my .223 bolt gun, I would prefer the 30-30 for a deer cartridge. Biggest factor for me would be shot placement. If the shot misses is its mark just a bit, i would definitely favor the heavier bullet in the 30-30. Especially on a 200+ pound buck. That being said, my 223 has killed a few does in the late season.

[Jdl447]

What I sometimes shoot in my .223
55 grain cast powder coated. 7 grains Unique at 1800 fps.
Accurate out to 150 yards, almost no recoil.

[LeverLover]

I found a detailed article by Terminal Ballistics Research on the .357 at www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.357+Magnum.html. This is an extremely versatile caliber. Apparently they were not as impressed with the 30-30 and .223 in their other articles. I might just make my .357 my "everything" gun which is what I bought it for in the first place. Thanks for the help guys.

[JEBar]

versatile caliber indeed .... as noted, various members of our family have been taking deer with 357 revolvers since the late since the late 70's .... given its strengths and limitations, it is an excellent cartridge .... within the 100 yard range you have listed, it will put meat on the table and with proper shot placement will do so with a clean, quick kill

my favorite pistol/rifle cartridge is the 44 mag .... it is simply a matter of personal preference ....

[Squatch]

I might just make my .357 my "everything" gun which is what I bought it for in the first place. Thanks for the help guys.

And that is why like JEBar My 44 mag Big Boy is Mr Ambassador. If you can only have one gun to do all things!

[North Country Gal]

I'll confess my love of the 44 mag, too. Me and the 44 mag go back many, many years. A 44 mag Super Blackhawk was actually my first deer "rifle." Now that we got out of reloading, though, I only occasionally shoot the 44 mag in one of my Contenders.

The 357 mag, though, is doable for us as far as being able to afford to shoot and, yes, in our thickly forested area, a 357 mag would do anything you need to do for hunting. It's also a great target round. It's also a great self-defense round. Not in the same class for target work at 100 yards and beyond as the 223, but still a very versatile cartridge.

[snell]

You have to define what you mean by "semi long range". Competitive shooters use the 223 at 600 yards all the time but generally use 77 or 80 grain bullets. The 80 grainers need to be single loaded so they can be seated far enough out for the powder charge. The 77s are loaded mag length. I wouldn't have much faith in them as deer rounds at that distance but they will fly straight and hit where you aim. The truth be told I would not use the 223 on deer at any range. The bullet is just to light weight to insure adequate penetration.
Google JBM Ballistics and you'll find a calculator that will give you bullet drop and remaining energy once you input a bit of data on any projectile. As a for instance, in the 30/30, the factory Remington 150 gr Core Lokt soft point has a listed muzzle velocity of 2390 fps. The ballistic coefficient of the bullet (its ability to cut through the air) is .196. Using these numbers the program says that the round (sighted in at 175 yds) will be 2.6" high at 100 yards( its high point) and only 2.3 inches low at 200 while still maintaining a velocity of 1616 fps. It starts dropping off fast after that. Play around with the zero range value to see where you want to be. If 200 is your idea of semi long range then the 30/30 will do fine.

[Yornoc3]

I had a .223 Mini Mauser, when Remington briefly offered them, which I intended to use in the early (October) antlerless deer seasons we used to have. The catch was, it really didn't like the 60 grain Win. Power point bullets I intended to use. It shot 'em accurately enough to shoot a deer, about 1 1/2" at 100 yards, but what it really liked was 45 grain Ballistic Tip bullets, which did dime size groups. Then the early antlerless hunts went away, so the Mini Mauser did, too. (If that itch comes back, I'll get a CZ 527 American.) I never did shoot a deer with it. I'd use a 30/30 if I was going to go doe hunting in October, now.

[LeverLover]

100 yds with open sights is all I was asking for and when I adjust the sights and get a stable bench rest I should be able to tighten this group even though the front bead completely covers the target and I am guessing location. This Henry with cheap 158gr SJHP is better than my skill. She's a keeper.