Copper Fouling - Fact or Fiction?

[leverjc]

I have watched several of his videos and like he says he wants to have us think and not react to the popular press of the time. Most of what he said I agree with from my experiences. I have had a couple of barrels that I believe copper build up does affect the accuracy.

[Mags]

I've re-watched the his video, several others and followed up with additional reading. These are my thoughts.

I think he is right in his video that copper fouling doesn't exist, at least not in the same way we think of carbon fouling. At least not until galvanic corrosion sets in. When the green fluffy like stuff forms with Iron and Copper in contact with moisture present. We all know carbon fouling draws moisture, right? So keep your bore clean and store dry.

To his point, an often used, well cared for bore should have little problem with copper. My caveat on that is that the bore should have well defined deeply cut rifling. In some of the firearms I have, the rifling is done with some sort of method where the rifling is barely present, very shallow. Like his point where copper smooths out the striations and imperfections of a bore, I think copper can fill-in shallow rifling resulting in a totally smooth bore. Not "fouling" per se, but too much copper, like too much lubricant.

To his point about the military not using copper removing solvents. This seems to be true. But what he didn't point out is that the military uses additives in their powder to minimize/eliminate copper deposit.

In the end, to me too much copper build up in a bore depends on the bore.

[GFK]

I think that we all agree with a clean barrel is a happy barrel. The question is, how clean is clean? The answer seems to vary. But, it may be reletive to the situation. For some, no carbon is good. For others, a mirror shine is great. To me, little to no debris is good.

Even though I shot a .45 ACP or 9mm annually for qualications while in the Navy, I never had to clean one. We had a gummer mate who took care of that. Yet, I did have to clean a S&W .38 Special, when qualifying to carry as a correctional office. There, the instructor expected close to spotless, which I tend to agree with. Again, take care of your tools and your tools will take care of you.

[5shot]

I watched the video and agree somewhat with the points he made. I've been on many prairie dog trips over the years and have worn out a few barrels.
In my experience when the shooting was hot and heavy accuracy started to go sour as the round count climbed. I always had two or three rifles along and had learned to switch when a barrel got hot. When Remington first came out with the stainless fluted varmint in the 700 I got one in .22/250 that never shot very well and coppered badly. I used harsh cleaners along with JB bore paste and obsessed that if all the copper was out it might shoot better. It didn't. I had the throat (deliberately ) torched with a total round count of 1600...not all in one trip of course. I sent the gun to a smith in Colorado (Dan Dowling) and had the rifle action trued and squared and a Hart barrel chambered in .22 BR. Accuracy was in the 1/4" to 3/8" area consistently with 50 gr. V-Max and benchmark or H322 powder. Since then I've had other after market barrels by Hart, Douglas and Schneider in calibers like .22BR, 6BR and .223.

My point is this....All these barrels will eventually copper up and accuracy will go downhill. Our motel rooms would reek from cleaning solvents at night as two or three of us were scrubbing barrels. I no longer obsess over getting every trace of copper out of a barrel but on the other hand you can't just run an oily patch down the barrel and call it good. The last few years I've switched to Bore-Tech Eliminator. Gets barrels clean with no stinky ammonia and doesn't harm steel. I'm no chemist so don't know how it works but I know my wife is not upset with me for fumigating the house when cleaning barrels. FWIW

[Mags]

After testing viability of using CFE223 powder for use in my H009, I cleaned the rifle. It was very sooty and I was getting a lot of copper signs (using TetraGun Solvent) in the patches. Ya, I thought to myself belatedly, 4 rounds was probably not enough to warm the octagon barrel up to it it's best potential. For CFE to work best it has to be hot in a hot barrel.

I went through a lot of patches and finally decided enough was enough (still getting signs of copper). I finished with a few patches of Hoppes#9 solvent til I got to light gray patches and then finished with a light oil patch and a dry patch. Then took some bore pictures with a newly purchased bore scope. The pictures show some minor copper streaks and something nasty with the last 1.1/4" behind the muzzle. Don't know if that is blast wear, bad bore from the factory, or something else. I'll probably query Henry customer service about that at some point. But not in hurry to do that, shooting accuracy is still very good.

As for the copper, what remains is in the bore groves, and one could surmise that the grove could eventually fill up with copper to the top of of the lands if not controlled by some cleaning removal.

WIN_20230421_12_51_21_Pro.jpg

WIN_20230421_12_51_37_Pro.jpg

WIN_20230421_12_52_49_Pro.jpg

[markiver54]

Perhaps a nylon or bronze brush?
Nice to have that bore scope. I might be afraid to see a couple of my older guns though.

[Ratchet]

Two comments about the video. First, I think the military’s lack of need for a copper solvent has more to do with their bores being chrome lined than anything else. Second, his story about the solvent eating a bronze brush. The solvent I have specifically says not to use a bronze brush. Maybe something to said about reading directions.
I have a .308 I put together using a “new factory take-off” barrel. One day while turning some ammo into brass for reloading, I had a mini kaboom. Catastrophic primer pocket failure. These were not thermo-nuclear loads, nor was I shooting excessively fast. Minor, repairable damage to the rifle. Inspection of the barrel revealed copper as far as I could see from the muzzle. It looked like it was copper plated. After much scrubbing, I could finally see some bare metal. The bore was really rough, almost looked like it had super fine threads in it. I pulled it and replaced it with a custom aftermarket barrel and all is good now.
Later, when reloading some of the brass, I found a handful of cases with really loose primer pockets. I believe copper was slowly build up in the barrel, gradually raising pressure until it was too much. I have never had a problem with copper before or since.
My opinion in a nutshell, it absolutely depends on the barrel. Most will never be a problem. But if a barrel wants to hold copper, especially a high intensity caliber, it can be a serious problem if not managed properly.

[Mags]

Perhaps a nylon or bronze brush?
Nice to have that bore scope. I might be afraid to see a couple of my older guns though.

I did send a bore snake through a few times. I notice in the picture it looks like fused bits of carbon bumps. Real life view, instead of bumps it looks like it's pitted. I'll take another look after using a brush focused on that spot.

The borescope was very inexpensive. $56. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TTQF24F?ps ... ct_details
This is the flex cable version. Came with different USB connector options for connecting to a smart phone, tablet or computer. I got this product version because I wanted the small storage case. There are other product versions. Shorter cable and/or hard wands. I also bought a set of right angle caliber specific mirrors for $20. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085XXZQK2?ps ... ct_details

[Mags]

...his story about the solvent eating a bronze brush. The solvent I have specifically says not to use a bronze brush.

Ya, the solvent probably attacking the copper in the bronze alloy.

[220]

I have had a few rifles over the years that have certainly been effected by copper fouling.
Current barrel on my swift wont hold accuracy after around 50 shots. A clean with just a carbon remover does improve things but use a solvent that removes copper as well and accuracy is back to where it should be.
Guess it depends a bit on what accuracy you are talking about, my swift even badly fouled will still shoot around 1" more than acceptable for a deer rifle but when you are trying to hit varmints at 400y or more its enough to miss the majority of the time. With a clean barrel it will shoot close to 1/4".

When I had the shop had a customer who's 17HMR accuracy had dropped off badly. It had been cleaned with just brushes and patches as they had always cleaned their other rimfires. Over 3k rounds through it, a clean with a copper solvent had accuracy back to where it was.

[Mags]

Perhaps a nylon or bronze brush?
...

A few Youtube videos later, seems my 30-30 has a bad case of baked in carbon fouling behind the muzzle. Did the bronze and nylon brushes with every bore cleaning solvent I have. Got some carbon out, but hardly touched it. Several Youtube videos imply that one the carbon fouling becomes hard baked even carbon fouling cleaners will hardly touch it.

[markiver54]

Perhaps a nylon or bronze brush?
...

A few Youtube videos later, seems my 30-30 has a bad case of baked in carbon fouling behind the muzzle. Did the bronze and nylon brushes with every bore cleaning solvent I have. Got some carbon out, but hardly touched it. Several Youtube videos imply that one the carbon fouling becomes hard baked even carbon fouling cleaners will hardly touch it.

Hmm..that's a head scratcher. I wonder what else might work to get in those lands without getting too aggressive.

[GFK]

I have had good experiences with Tetra Gun Copper Solvent with a tonada brush. The instructions state to let the solvet set for 15-30 minutes at a time. I found that letting it set closer to 45-60 minutes at a time yeilds better results.

https://www.amazon.com/Tetra-Gun-Copper ... B0001YY3DA

https://www.amazon.com/Hoppes-Tornado-G ... 118&sr=8-1

[markiver54]

I have used a Tornado brush before, but I don't see it getting down into the lands. The Tetra solvent is good.

[Mags]

I have had good experiences with Tetra Gun Copper Solvent with a tonada brush. The instructions state to let the solvet set for 15-30 minutes at a time. I found that letting it set closer to 45-60 minutes at a time yeilds better results.

https://www.amazon.com/Tetra-Gun-Copper ... B0001YY3DA

https://www.amazon.com/Hoppes-Tornado-G ... 118&sr=8-1

Thanks. That's exactly what I did and used. Works great for copper and mild carbon stains, but has no effect on globs of hard baked in carbon.

[GFK]

Great. Should had read closer. Thought you were dealing copper. For carbon, I have used Flitz on external parts. Have not had to deal with a barrel. But, I would probably try Lead Away or Flitz for a revolver barrel. A patch of Lead Away may work in a longer barrel also?

[Mags]

I spent a good part of today working on the carbon behind the muzzle with whatever household solvents we have that I thought safe for gun metal steel and barrel bluing. I got nowhere with the household stuff. I finally resorted to using Wheeler 220 Grit Bore Lapping Compound. Applied the compound to a patch wrapped around a bronze bore brush. A gazillion in and out stokes later, in and out so as not to cross stroke the rifling, I do believe I got the carbon out. But in so doing revealed bad bore cutting chatter underneath. The chatter probably why the carbon built up in it. Before and after pictures.
:

WIN_20230421_12_52_49_Pro.jpg

WIN_20230424_13_13_57_Pro.jpg

[markiver54]

Unfortunately, looks like that bore is now poised to catch more...no?
Good job getting it clean though.

[Mags]

Unfortunately, looks like that bore is now poised to catch more...no?
Good job getting it clean though.

Yup and thanks.

[GFK]

Looks clean! Maybe, that will have to be part of your normal routine, for awhile? From what I have read, lapping a barrel can smooth it out some. I have not tried it. I just been shooting and cleaning, hoping that things will smooth out, someday.

Lapping:
https://www.ktgunsmith.com/firelapping.htm

Kit:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1006412014/