Henry Rifle Forums

Didn't search beyond the first page, but haven't seen anything about kitchen knives.

I haven't bought any decent kitchen knives in the past. I would like to have a good thin, well balanced knife that holds a good edge.

Two things, first, my daughter wants a replacement for for her 5" santoku. I was looking at the Hencklel and Wusthof offerings. She doesn't need a real high end knife, but would like something that holds an edge for longer than the average Hollywood marriage. I wanted to pick up one locally for her birthday, but looks like I'll have to order one online for Christmas, or some other special occasion.

When I was out looking for the santoku, I saw a 4.5 inch paring knife by Wusthof and bought it on impulse. I should have done my research. It turns out this was not their "better" line. It's supposed to be HCS, but there is no steel designation, so it's anybody's guess what it's made of. It takes a good edge, and is fairly thin. Only time will tell whether it needs to be resharpened too often. I didn't pay a whole lot for it, so not a big loss if it doesn't meet expectations.

From my further research, I found that both Henckel and Wusthof use a steel that is not terribly high in carbon, and apparently doesn't hold an edge as long as some steels. Not sure if that is just the steel snobs, or a real concern for someone who just wants a decent knife.

I was thinking about perhaps one of the Japanese made santukos. I see several on Amazon in the $50 - $80 range that look good, but are names I am not familiar with.

Thoughts?

Have a set of Henckel. Seems like we are always having to sharpen them.

we have 2 sets of Cutco knives .... 1 at home, 1 in our camper .... we've had both sets for something over 10 years .... they hold their edges well and when it becomes necessary, they are easy to sharpen with something like a Bavarian Edge.... while they aren't cheap, they are far from the most expensive out there ....

I use three different-make knives for my kitchen duties.

5" Cuisinart Classic Stainless Steel
This was a gift from one of my daughters. Believe she purchased it at a Bed, Bath, and Beyond, which is her favorite store. It is lightweight, comfortable in my large hand, holds sharpness well. I like it particularly because it is so plain....all nice-looking stainless. Does a good job for me especially that I'm always dicing vegetables and potatoes. Sorry, never took any photos.

Al Mar C4 Petite Chef Knife 4.75" Blade, Black Pakkawood Handles
This might be one for you to consider and take a close look at. I got it a couple of years ago as a requested Christmas gift from another daughter (we do family gift exchanges with $100 limit). I did all the research, and even found it on sale for her to purchase on the internet! The blade is very thin, sharper than sharp, and the ergonomically-comfortable Pakkawood handle doesn't slip around in my hand at all. It is not extremely expensive. We got this one for about $70 with the MSRP at $115 back in 2016. I know that one internet shop, https://www.knifecenter.com sells Al-Mar knives. Certain you'll find one there.

Here are the research specs I found:

• Overall Length: 9.00"
• Blade Length: 4.75"
• Blade Material: VG-2
• Edge Type: Plain
• Handle Length: 4.25"
• Handle Material: Pakkawood
• Color: Wood
• Weight: 3.00 oz.
• Knife Type: Fixed Blade
• Brand: Al Mar
• Model: Utility
• Model Number: AM-C4
• Country of Origin: Japan
• Best Use: Kitchen
• Finish: Satin
• Blade Style: Drop Point

It is a great knife, and glad I chose it. Also I've had other Japanese-made knives, and usually find them to be of good all-around quality. This one has definitely not disappointed.

Buck 119
This is a great knife, and I've used it a lot in the kitchen. But definitely too thick of a blade based on your preference.

Knife Photos
The first photo is one I took as I was gathering up kitchen cutlery and food to prepare a crock pot dinner --- meat, veggies, potatoes....it was YUM! My Al-Mar did a great job partnering with my Buck in the kitchen duty that day.
These photos are my Al-Mar right after I opened it NOOB. Had a big grin on my face when that box lid came open....it's a very sharp, sharp-looking kitchen knife!
So that's my primary kitchen cutlery crew. I'm happy with each one.
Hope whatever you find suits your slicing needs well, Clovishound. Let us know what you finally get.
PT7

as noted above, my wife uses Cutco knives .... I have 4 that I use exclusively in food prep ... they are all shaving sharp and my wife prefers not to use them :

1st picture .... 2 vintage Uncle Henry fillet knives .... both started out with 11.5" blades ... I cut them down to 6" .... I find that when I need a thin blade, they do a great job

2nd picture .... my new Buck 119 now serves the purpose when I need a heavier blade

3rd picture .... my Buck 110 .... its always on my belt .... we do a great deal of grilling out / entertaining .... the 110 is always handy and I use it as a general purpose blade .... in addition, when we go out to a restaurant were they have sorry steak knives, I have no reservations about drawing and using my Buck .... doing so doesn't seem to embarrass my wife as much as it used to, guess after many years she's getting used to it ..

Found this

https://www.thespruceeats.com/differenc ... es-4109602

I have a set of KitchenAid knives, I use the Santoku more than any of the others, occasionally use the sharpening steel that came with it.

This one looks and sounds so nice I may have to order one.

https://www.amazon.com/ZELITE-INFINITY- ... %7C%7C1%7C

Make sure you get a high carbon knife (less flex and holds an edge better), a full tang knife tapered with a sufficient bolster. Also, you don't have to sharpen a good knife all that often, just steel it every time you use it (especially if cutting bone.) We have Wustofs, Henckels, and Victorinoxes at the shop. My personal knives are Messermeisters and I do not take them to the shop. Shop and Prep knives take a beating.

A choice in a Chef's Knife also depends upon what product you cut and how you cut. Many folks complain about knives due to the fact that they are not using the knife correctly (grip, cut angle, etc) or using the wrong knife for a specific purpose. Also, the substrate used (cutting board) plays a large part also. We never use wood cutting boards simply because they are bacteria breeders, promote cross contamination, and don't really hold up well. We use polymer boards. My favorite is a San Jamar CBG121812WH. Polymer blend, heat and chemical resistant, NSF certified, and you can run it through a commercial dishwasher.

As far as sharpening - we don't do ours ourselves. We have a professional service that comes in and sharpens all our knives periodically. I can stone a knife if I have to but I really don't want to have to do it.

We do have a couple of santoku's that are ok. I like the ones with the blade relief cutout so the product releases nicely. I don't care for the short length of the santoku's tho. I prefer a 10" or 12" chef or utility knife.

Also, we never buy knives from retail (BB+Beyond, Sur La Table, etc..) - waaaay too expensive. Look for a restaurant supply in your area. Better prices but you might have to be in the industry to buy there. Anyone here in the Dallas area should be familiar with AceMart. Big hard goods supply house. There are a few stores in the Metroplex. Worth a look.

Thanks for the advice, chefduane. I recently discovered how much a steel can do for you. I am certainly not a chef, nor would I consider myself a cook. I do, however, like having a sharp, well behaved knife when I prepare food. The lower line Wusthof I just got, initially seems to be better enough to me to warrant looking into the next level up.

I do tend to come at things from a little different perspective, due to my background. I have messed around with woodworking hand tools for a number of years and so sharpening to me is something I have come to expect to do myself. I can't imagine having to get someone else to do my sharpening for me. When working on a woodworking project, a plane iron or chisel must normally be sharpened quite a few times in the course of a day's work.

I am also a little curious about your dislike of wooden cutting boards. I have read quite a few articles that say that opinions are changing in regards to wooden boards and bacteria. The drying action of the wood tends to inhibit microbe growth. There is also concern that the cuts in plastic boards hold moisture and bacteria together. I will have to say, though, that I never use wooden boards for raw meats.

I am hearing that good knives only need to be sharpened every couple months, assuming they are not used on bone and other difficult materials. I have to sharpen the knives I have had a lot more often than that. I am looking forward to seeing how this Wusthof fares, although I wish I had done my research better and known it was not one of their premium lines. I suppose the price should have alerted me.

Gentlemen, I'm always learning something new. And this time I didn't need to do any research. Within your two posts, I got a general picture of the two sides of the coin regarding cutting boards.

I only checked out Mr. Webster because "substrate" is new word to me. My faithful dictionary stated this one of the several meanings listed: "the surface or material on or from which an organism lives, grows, or obtains its nourishment." Interesting.

My Mom always used wood cutting boards; my wife had three polymer cutting boards, which I use regularly. Over the years when they did kitchen duty together, never heard them compare or say anything about cutting boards.

All I can add to the two sides of the coin is the edge; what I from time-to-time use to cut veggies or potatoes. I've diced these foods on a Corelle plate. I don't think that material would lend itself to Mr. Webster's definition, but don't know. Also I'd just guess (again don't know), but the plate does not have any "give" to it as the knife is used. I'd think both wood and polymer do have "give," as cut marks remain behind. Well, Corelle is probably not the best material to use a knife on. What do you say?

Finally to Chef Duane. I'll let my daughter know your comment about purchasing cutlery at BB+Beyond...good info. Unfortunately for her purse, he doesn't pay much attention to pricing --- she just likes to shop, pure & simple.
Thanks to you both.
PT7

ChefDuane wrote: Also, the substrate used (cutting board) plays a large part also. We never use wood cutting boards simply because they are bacteria breeders, promote cross contamination, and don't really hold up well. We use polymer boards. My favorite is a San Jamar CBG121812WH. Polymer blend, heat and chemical resistant, NSF certified, and you can run it through a commercial dishwasher.

Also, we never buy knives from retail (BB+Beyond) - waaaay too expensive. Look for a restaurant supply in your area. Better prices ….

clovishound wrote:I am also a little curious about your dislike of wooden cutting boards. I have read quite a few articles that say that opinions are changing in regards to wooden boards and bacteria. The drying action of the wood tends to inhibit microbe growth. There is also concern that the cuts in plastic boards hold moisture and bacteria together. I will have to say, though, that I never use wooden boards for raw meats.

+1 on ChefDuane's advice on Kitchen Supply houses. Spent many years in that business and bought lots of knives and sharpeners. Paid for lots of kids' stitches, too, but that's another story.

Even if there's not one handy to where you live, the web is full of them. Here's an example of one I"ve used for a while.

https://www.publickitchensupply.com/p-1 ... knife.aspx

I went ahead and ordered this and also their paring knife, was going to get their cheaper model but for $20 more this one is VG-10 steel which apparently is one of the best kitchen steels.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06Y1FHGPB/re ... 785e22d3f3

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06Y24M7QP/re ... 2d3f3&th=1

https://knifeup.com/what-is-vg-10-steel/

Supposed to be here Saturday, I'll post some photos and my impressions. I did notice that one article says VG-10 can be kind of brittle due to the higher carbon content so I'll be sure to use one of my other knives for cutting anything with bones.

I've got a decent steel rod and a smaller ceramic rod for honing. Any suggestions for a good water stone? I was looking at this one on Amazon, it has good reviews. It would be nice to get a couple of the high end natural stones but don't really want to speed that much.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FZZUL30/?c ... _lig_dp_it

dave77 wrote:Any suggestions for a good water stone? I was looking at this one on Amazon, it has good reviews

I've been using a Smith's 50008 8-Inch Diamond Tri-Hone Bench Stone of the last couple of years .... it is the finest set of sharpening stones I've used .... so much so that I gave each of our sons one for Christmas .... the diamond stones do a good job working with Buck's hardest S30V steel

[b]https://www.amazon.com/Smiths-50008- ... i-Hone[/b]

dave77 wrote:Supposed to be here Saturday, I'll post some photos and my impressions. I did notice that one article says VG-10 can be kind of brittle due to the higher carbon content so I'll be sure to use one of my other knives for cutting anything with bones.

I've got a decent steel rod and a smaller ceramic rod for honing. Any suggestions for a good water stone? I was looking at this one on Amazon, it has good reviews. It would be nice to get a couple of the high end natural stones but don't really want to speed that much.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FZZUL30/?c ... _lig_dp_it

I've never used waterstones before, but I understand that they can be somewhat troublesome. They need to be soaked thoroughly before each use, and have to be flattened periodically. You must also build up a slurry during the sharpening process. Lots of folks think that waterstones are the cat's meow for sharpening, but a lot seem to have issues with them.

For knives, I prefer a diamond plate. A set of 2 or 3 grits is nice, but if you have your knife in good shape, and never let it get too badly out of shape, a single fine plate does a good job IMO. I'm not wild about diamond plates for plane irons and wood chisels, but they are great for knives. As has been mentioned before, a steel does a good job of maintaining the edge in between sharpenings. I tend to prefer the solid plates vs the ones with the oval holes in the plate. For knives it is less of an issue, but for smaller items the holes make registering the bevel on the surface difficult. Diamond plates can be used dry, or with water. I use water and a little bit of detergent. No soaking, just wet the surface and put a small dot of dish detergent on it. They tend to cut very aggressively when new, but quickly settle down to a less aggressive, finer cut after knocking off the high tops of the embedded diamonds. They last a very long time with just a little care.

Too many options, I'm happy with the results I get with my WorkSharp on my other knives but don't want to use it on these new knifes. The new knives are ground at 12 degrees and that's not an option with the WorkSharp. If I do get some stones (water or diamond) I saw these on Amazon, looks like they would really help to keep the right angle when sharpening.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N4QMO7U/?c ... ZC7N&psc=0

Shouldn't have to worry about sharpening them for some time if I hone them regularly, Zelite recommends using a King 1000/6000 whetstone.

Also, there is a retired contractor/lumberyard owner just down the road that has a sharpening business, I think I'll see what he thinks of sharpening it. He's a good guy, gave me lots of good advice for misc. projects when he had his lumber yard.

When I sharpen plane irons and chisels, I sometimes use a guide, and sometimes freehand them. When you freehand, you will get a somewhat rounded bevel. What you end up with is, in effect, a micro bevel. Some folks intentionally use micro bevels with sharpening guides. They occasionally sharpen to a given bevel angle, say 30 degrees. This takes more time than a simple touch up sharpen. After getting the entire bevel to 30 degrees, they will set the guide to a couple degrees steeper angle and just use a few strokes. Since they are only taking off steel from a very small area, it is quite easy to get the micro bevel sharp. When the micro bevel gets too long, they redo the entire bevel. Free hand sharpening tends to do the same thing, only not as precisely. I don't think a rounded bevel is a bad thing.

I doubt the angle guides you linked to will keep the knife locked into a precise angle. They will obviously help, vs just eyeballing it every time, but with a little practice, one can get pretty consistent.

Here is one sold by Lee Valley, that will really help keep the angle consistent.



They are not expensive. Here is the link: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.a ... at=1,43072

Lee Valley sells good quality, often innovative tools. Their April fool's tools are a hoot.

Interesting tool, I may order one. Would it only work with their stone and holder? It seems to me that a stone at a different height would change the angle but I may not be visualizing it correctly.

Yes, the guides I linked to don't hold the blade, they just help you start your stroke at the correct angle.

I have quite a few of the Henkel knives for the kitchen that we bought from time to time at Bed Bath and Beyond. They really hold a good edge and my wife really likes them. She likes them even better when I get at it with the sharpener. In the meantime we have bought several sets of ceramic knives. Im impressed at how well they work especially for slicing tomatoes and other similar veggies. When used for slicing the harder items like cheese one wants to be real careful as the knife can break if you move them around to much while slicing.

Our Henkel knives won't hold an edge anymore. Every other use need to be sharpened.

dave77 wrote:Interesting tool, I may order one. Would it only work with their stone and holder? It seems to me that a stone at a different height would change the angle but I may not be visualizing it correctly.

Yes, the guides I linked to don't hold the blade, they just help you start your stroke at the correct angle.

I looks like it is designed to work with the sharpening media within a certain distance from the counter/bench top. The angle is adjustable, so it should work within a range of distances. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be used with a variety of mediums. Worst case scenario is you would have to put something under the medium to raise it's height, or something on the counter to raise the surface the guide rides on. You would have to use something as a guide to get the angle right the first time. Within reason, I don't think the exact angle is that important. Consistency is the key. For example, if you have the bevel honed to, say 15 degrees, and then next time you have it set to 12 degrees, you will have to remove a lot of material to get the bevel to intersect the edge. Of course, if you go the other direction, from shallow to steep, you have to remove very little. In that case, you will have a micro bevel, unless you decide to rework the entire bevel, which is a waste of time and steel. Keeping the same each time is the key to saving time and steel.

This was one of the first sharpening jigs I ran across and posted it just to give you an idea of what was out there. A search on the internet might show up a different design that might suite your needs better. I have seen a few that are incorporated into a complete system.

I did another quick search, and it looks like this sharpening guide is actually made by DMT. They make quality diamond plates, and so this guide was likely designed with that in mind, but the design makes it likely to be versatile. Here is a link:

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT- ... e-P11.aspx

They also have other sharpening supplies, such as DMT diamond plates, and one or two other sharpening guides and systems.

Most woodworking tools are a little simpler, in that they usually have a single bevel. With a knife you have a double bevel. With a single bevel, angles are usually in the 20-30 degree range. With a double bevel, the angle is cut in half, but since there are two bevels, the actual cutting angle is the same. For example, an 11 degree bevel on each side of the knife adds up to a 22 degree cutting angle. Knives typically have shallower angles than woodworking tools. A 22 degree angle would be considered quite shallow for a plane or chisel. A shallow angle gives a sharper edge, but it is more prone to damage in use. A steeper angle is more durable, but less sharp. Like most things in life, it's a trade off.