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A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:21 pm
by Ridgerunner665
These 2 bullets weigh the same... but the similarity ends there.
The Swift bullet is .726" long, the XTP is .673"... the nose of the bullet is shorter on the Swift, so it seats way deeper into the case.
The XTP seated to the front of the cannelure will have an overall length of around 1.585" (depending on case trim length)... the Swift seated to the front of the cannelure is 1.54", which is too short I think.
Looking at pictures of Federal ammo using the Swift bullet, they are crimped just over the bottom of the cannelure, which comes out to 1.565" overall length.
I have some test rounds loaded with the Swift bullets and 19, 19.5, 20, and 20.5 grains of Accurate 4100 to see what the speeds are over the chrono tomorrow... trying to find where the top end is.
Thats all I got for now... more to come tomorrow.
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:44 pm
by JEBar
looking forward to your coming reports
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:20 pm
by Mags
.
Looking forward to it.
Ridgerunner665 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:21 pm
... more to come tomorrow.
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:25 am
by GunnyGene
Ridgerunner665 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:21 pm
These 2 bullets weigh the same... but the similarity ends there.
The Swift bullet is .726" long, the XTP is .673"... the nose of the bullet is shorter on the Swift, so it seats way deeper into the case.
The XTP seated to the front of the cannelure will have an overall length of around 1.585" (depending on case trim length)... the Swift seated to the front of the cannelure is 1.54", which is too short I think.
Looking at pictures of Federal ammo using the Swift bullet, they are crimped just over the bottom of the cannelure, which comes out to 1.565" overall length.
I have some test rounds loaded with the Swift bullets and 19, 19.5, 20, and 20.5 grains of Accurate 4100 to see what the speeds are over the chrono tomorrow... trying to find where the top end is.
Thats all I got for now... more to come tomorrow.
Looking forward to this, since we have the same model rifle.
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:57 am
by Ridgerunner665
OK... first things first when I don't have specific load data to work with.
Calibrate QuickLoad to the Henry.... fired one of my steel banging loads through the rifle then measured its expanded capacity using water... QL's default for the 41 Magnum is 35.5 grains, the measured capacity of my Henry BBSC is 36.8 grains.
Calibrate QuickLoad to the bullets... the default bullet length for the Swift bullet is .730", actual measured length of my batch is .726".
The default for the Hornady bullet is .617", actual measured length of my batch is .673".
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:31 am
by Ridgerunner665
This is the Swift bullet with Accurate 4100 powder
19 grains....QL predicted 1,631 fps...MagnetoSpeed says 1,615 fps.
19.5 grains...QL predicted 1,672 fps...MagnetoSpeed says 1,670 fps.
20 grains....QL predicted 1,714 fps...MagnetoSpeed says 1,678 fps.
20.5 grains...QL predicted 1,755 fps...MagnetoSpeed says 1,716 fps.
I'm thinking 20 or 20.5 grains is gonna be max for Accurate 4100 and the 210 grain Swift A-Frame... gonna load 5 each and see what the averages look like.
Be back in a bit.
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:23 pm
by Ridgerunner665
Looks like 20.3 grains of 4100 is maxed out with the 210 Swift...
1,705 fps 10 shot average... best I can figure this is running around 35,300 psi, but I don't have pressure equipment to test for sure so that is nothing more than a SWAG.
SAAMI says 36,000 psi maximum average pressure, 37,100 psi maximum probable lot average (maximum for a specific lot of ammo), and 38,800 psi maximum probable sample average (max for any given round in a lot).
Stopping at 35,300 psi seems a reasonable safe limit...Accurate powders load data for this powder also stops in that range.
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:28 pm
by GunnyGene
Ridgerunner665 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:23 pm
Looks like 20.3 grains of 4100 is maxed out with the 210 Swift...
1,705 fps 10 shot average... best I can figure this is running around 35,300 psi, but I don't have pressure equipment to test for sure so that is nothing more than a SWAG.
I'd call that acceptable although a little on the low side compared to the Underwood XTP I chrono'd a couple weeks ago (1738 avg). What was the spread?
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:30 pm
by Ridgerunner665
See the edit above... the Swift is a longer bullet, smaller combustion chamber (usable case capacity), smaller powder charge for the same pressure... all adds up to a little lower velocity.
ES was 30, SD was 12.
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:34 pm
by Ridgerunner665
I'm going to shoot a string with my XTP load now... haven't shot a string using the MagnetoSpeed with that load... curious to see how fast the MagnetoSpeed says it is.
The optical chrono (Caldwell) said 1,725 fps...
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:00 pm
by Ridgerunner665
20.5 grains of 4100 under a 210 XTP...
1,731 fps
SD 15
ES 42
21 grains will be max with this combo...at about 35,700 psi (~1,750 fps).
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:34 pm
by Ridgerunner665
Next up... I've got 14 one gallon jugs.
Penetration and bullet integrity test.
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:54 pm
by GunnyGene
Ridgerunner665 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:00 pm
20.5 grains of 4100 under a 210 XTP...
1,731 fps
SD 15
ES 42
21 grains will be max with this combo...at about 35,700 psi (~1,750 fps).
Maybe just differences in rifles, but the spread is a good bit wider than what I had. I had about 100rds thru mine prior to the chrono, so your results may tighten up over time.
See this:
http://henryrifleforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=7562
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:06 pm
by Ridgerunner665
An ES of 42 is perfectly fine in a 150 yard round...I could bring it down by prepping brass better but don't see the point...42 fps at 150 yards is something like 1/4 inch difference in drop, not a significant number for my uses.
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:25 pm
by GunnyGene
Ridgerunner665 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:06 pm
An ES of 42 is perfectly fine in a 150 yard round...I could bring it down by prepping brass better but don't see the point...42 fps at 150 yards is something like 1/4 inch difference in drop, not a significant number for my uses.
I wasn't implying that was unsatisfactory. Just noting the difference.
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:56 pm
by Ridgerunner665
Shot from 20 feet into gallon jugs of water....
XTP muzzle velocity...1,731 fps
A-Frame muzzle velocity...1,705 fps
XTP destroyed 2 jugs and stopped in the 3rd one.
A-Frame destroyed 2 jugs and stopped in the 5th one.
XTP expanded (flattened?) to .800" and had a retained weight of 174 grains (83%).
A-Frame expanded to .610" and had a retained weight of 187 grains (89%).
Its pretty clear which is which...lol.
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:58 pm
by Ridgerunner665
GunnyGene wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:25 pm
Ridgerunner665 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:06 pm
An ES of 42 is perfectly fine in a 150 yard round...I could bring it down by prepping brass better but don't see the point...42 fps at 150 yards is something like 1/4 inch difference in drop, not a significant number for my uses.
I wasn't implying that was unsatisfactory. Just noting the difference.
I hear ya brother
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:00 pm
by Ridgerunner665
I'm done for the day... gotta load some up to sight in the A-Frame tomorrow.
It's been fun, I'm tired...I can shoot in my back yard but walking up and down that hill gets rough, lol.
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:21 pm
by Ridgerunner665
One more thing... for those that haven't shot a lot of water jugs.
The XTP is marginal at best at these velocities... expanding to .800" and stopping in the 3rd jug means it isn't going to penetrate all that great on game....suitable for behind the shoulder shots only, it won't make it through hard bone.
4 jugs is a typical good deer bullet.
5 jugs is a good bullet for big black bear, big boar, large deer, elk, etc.
6 jugs is getting into moose and grizzly bullets.
Re: A tale of 2 bullets...XTP and A-Frame in 41 magnum
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:09 pm
by Ridgerunner665
Sight in complete...
It's a shooter, shoots both loads I've worked with here to the same point of aim which will be handy.
The following picture is 10 rounds at 50 yards using both loads (5 each), from the sitting position, no shooting rest other than my elbows...I know it looks like only 9 holes, but all 10 are in there somewhere.
