straw purchase ?

[dave77]

Found a dealer in Florida that has a few new PX4c's in stock. Dealer is "Shoot Straight". They've been around since 1979 and have several Stores in addition to their online sales. I've never heard of them but reviews seem OK, a few negative but mostly good.

I've never bought a gun online before, I assume if it doesn't pass a visual inspection before my FFL does the transfer it can be sent back and if there's an issue with a refund my CC company will get involved.

My question is if I use my credit card to pay for the gun (she has no credit card and we don't think it's wise to use her debit card online) but all the paperwork and background check at our FFL is done in her name would it be considered a straw purchase.

A clerk at Sportman's Warehouse told us that if we used my card to buy a gun they could not fill out the transfer forms in her name, it would be a straw purchase, but I could go over and buy a gift certificate, hand it to her and then the purchase would be legal.

The clerk at the gun store we would be using to do the transfer said it didn't matter who paid for the gun, if the forms (including the background check) were filled out in her name it would be a legal purchase. He said they do it quite often with in store sales, ie. , boy/girl friend, husband/wife, father/mother comes in and pays for the gun but the paperwork is done in the actual new owner's name.

[Travlin]

So what seems to be the problem here? If the store that will do the finale paperwork is OK with what you want to do then proceed. Shoot Straight is well known in this neck of the woods (west central Florida) and they advertise on the radio.

[dave77]

Probably not a problem but want be sure I'm covered. A straw purchase is a serious federal felony. I think the issue at Sportsman Warehouse is probably more store policy since they are a fairly large chain store.

https://www.texasdefensefirm.com/what-i ... -purchase/

I also have slightly ulterior motive. Langdon Tactical is expecting some PX4c's by early Feb. They do some trigger work and add a few other options and resell them for a couple of hundred more as a "Compact Carry PX4". I would order one for myself and then transfer my PX4c to her.

[GunnyGene]

This is somewhat of a legal gray area in the ATF rules. Because of that some dealers will approach it as Sportsmans Warehouse does, others as Shoot Straight does. I've encountered both approaches. This is one reason I prefer to pay cash for firearms and don't buy on-line. That way, if I want to gift it to someone, I'm perfectly free to do so, and I don't discuss the question with the dealer at all. If the recipient of my gift to them wants to gift me in return, it's all well and good. Do you understand?

If you're worried about it, a gift card would take some of the pressure off your mind and hers. Here's the ATF rule about it all: See the instructions for Question 21A. Read it carefully.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473- ... 9/download

The other way to handle this is for her to simply have a local shop order the gun. Most will do that. When it comes in, she can just get some cash out of her bank acct. or use her debit card, fill out the paperwork at the shop, you don't get involved at all, and everyone is happy.

[BigAl52]

Shoot straight is a dealer on Gunbroker also. If you look there you might be able to buy it there and find a FFL in your area that with do the paperwork for you also. Whats the local stores charging to do the transfer?

[Grunt67]

21A is pretty clear. An old Army suggestion, when in doubt, don't.
Store clerks are often not a good source for legal advice. Find another way as others have suggested.

[GunnyGene]

21A is pretty clear. An old Army suggestion, when in doubt, don't.
Store clerks are often not a good source for legal advice. Find another way as others have suggested.

I do have an issue with WA State laws about private transfers ( I looked it up). Everything has to go thru an FFL with a NICS check. More money, more hassle, zero effect on criminals.

[Oldbrass]

I've purchased a few firearms online. It's shipped to your FFL of choosing where the paper work is done just as if you purchased it from the original store. IT IS NOT SHIPPED TO YOUR FRONT DOOR as the uneducated believe. New firearms are not an issue as they have warranty. Used buyer beware. Only used online purchase was my S&W model 10 which was better than seller described. AND yes we in washington have to FFL transfer for private sales. However If the firearm was made pre 2018 you could just say you sold it BEFORE the law was in affect but I'd never do such a thing .. as for mandatory background checks get ready to bend over America there's new bosses in DC

[Oldbrass]

OH it's not a straw purchase which is YOU legally buy a gun with intent to buy for someone else like a drug dealer or politician with an arrest record. Sportsman warehouse is protecting the consumer from identity theft it's just store policy and not a bad one.

[beaverislander]

I agree with GunnyGene and Oldbrass on these two thoughts:

"I do have an issue with WA State laws about private transfers ( I looked it up). Everything has to go thru an FFL with a NICS check. More money, more hassle, zero effect on criminals.

and

"as for mandatory background checks get ready to bend over America there's new bosses in DC."

As there are "bad guys" they will have guns and no laws or regulations will change that.

[dave77]

21A is pretty clear. An old Army suggestion, when in doubt, don't.
Store clerks are often not a good source for legal advice. Find another way as others have suggested.

I do have an issue with WA State laws about private transfers ( I looked it up). Everything has to go thru an FFL with a NICS check. More money, more hassle, zero effect on criminals.

I didn't think about her getting a pre-paid debit card for the purchase, we will do that if we decide to get it online. Also I was told that debit cards are now a lot safer to use online, now limited to $50 liability if you report fraudulent activity in a timely matter just like with credit cards.

As to Washington state's new gun laws, we CCP holders now also have a 10 day waiting period where we used to have no waiting period. Don't quite understand how that came about. Apparently it was a combination of the initiative and a request from the FBI to have our background checks go through the state police. The stupidest part of the new law is that something like a Ruger 10/22 is now classified as an assault weapon.

I really don't mind the required background check for all purchases/transfers, my main concern is they will change us to a may issue CCP state like California instead of a shall issue like we currently are. I once had a conversation at the gun store with a cop, he said he would rather pull over someone with a CCP (comes back that the registered car owner has one when they run a vehicle licence check) than not. He knows someone that has a CCP is more than likely to be a law abiding citizen. A criminal is not going to have a CCP but is very likely to have a gun.

[GunnyGene]

21A is pretty clear. An old Army suggestion, when in doubt, don't.
Store clerks are often not a good source for legal advice. Find another way as others have suggested.

I do have an issue with WA State laws about private transfers ( I looked it up). Everything has to go thru an FFL with a NICS check. More money, more hassle, zero effect on criminals.

I didn't think about her getting a pre-paid debit card for the purchase, we will do that if we decide to get it online. Also I was told that debit cards are now a lot safer to use online, now limited to $50 liability if you report fraudulent activity in a timely matter just like with credit cards.

As to Washington state's new gun laws, we CCP holders now also have a 10 day waiting period where we used to have no waiting period. Don't quite understand how that came about. Apparently it was a combination of the initiative and a request from the FBI to have our background checks go through the state police. The stupidest part of the new law is that something like a Ruger 10/22 is now classified as an assault weapon.

I really don't mind the required background check for all purchases/transfers, my main concern is they will change us to a may issue CCP state like California instead of a shall issue like we currently are. I once had a conversation at the gun store with a cop, he said he would rather pull over someone with a CCP (comes back that the registered car owner has one when they run a vehicle licence check) than not. He knows someone that has a CCP is more than likely to be a law abiding citizen. A criminal is not going to have a CCP but is very likely to have a gun.

Re: Traffic stops. Since we are a permitless carry state, all levels of LEO assume that everyone is carrying during a stop. There's also no restriction on loaded guns in reach of the driver or passengers, whether visible or concealed; and no requirement to notify the officer. I've never heard of anyone getting busted simply because they have a gun handy in the car. Our vehicles (including motorcycles) are considered an extension of our home. Same with a tent or anything else we happen to be legally occupying. When it comes to gun laws, MS is an entirely different planet than the rest of the USA. And we like it like that. This is one State where manners matter.

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”

― Robert A. Heinlein,

[dave77]

I do have an issue with WA State laws about private transfers ( I looked it up). Everything has to go thru an FFL with a NICS check. More money, more hassle, zero effect on criminals.

Re: Traffic stops. Since we are a permitless carry state, all levels of LEO assume that everyone is carrying during a stop. There's also no restriction on loaded guns in reach of the driver or passengers, whether visible or concealed; and no requirement to notify the officer. I've never heard of anyone getting busted simply because they have a gun handy in the car. Our vehicles (including motorcycles) are considered an extension of our home. Same with a tent or anything else we happen to be legally occupying. When it comes to gun laws, MS is an entirely different planet than the rest of the USA. And we like it like that. This is one State where manners matter.

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”

― Robert A. Heinlein,

I remember reading that book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_This_Horizon. Almost everyone carried a gun, if you didn't you had to wear a sash. Duels were legal.

I thought I had read all of Heinlein's books but just saw on Wiki that there are a couple of posthumous one's that I've missed.

[GunnyGene]

I do have an issue with WA State laws about private transfers ( I looked it up). Everything has to go thru an FFL with a NICS check. More money, more hassle, zero effect on criminals.

Re: Traffic stops. Since we are a permitless carry state, all levels of LEO assume that everyone is carrying during a stop. There's also no restriction on loaded guns in reach of the driver or passengers, whether visible or concealed; and no requirement to notify the officer. I've never heard of anyone getting busted simply because they have a gun handy in the car. Our vehicles (including motorcycles) are considered an extension of our home. Same with a tent or anything else we happen to be legally occupying. When it comes to gun laws, MS is an entirely different planet than the rest of the USA. And we like it like that. This is one State where manners matter.

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”

― Robert A. Heinlein,

I remember reading that book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_This_Horizon. Almost everyone carried a gun, if you didn't you had to wear a sash. Duels were legal.

I thought I had read all of Heinlein's books but just saw on Wiki that there are a couple of posthumous one's that I've missed.

He was absolutely ahead of his time. As was Azimov, and several others.

[fortyshooter]

My last gun purchase was on Guns International and dealing with a private individual. I sent him a personal check and waited 8 days for it to clear and he shipped it to my FFL from his. Worked out nice !

[Hatchdog]

I’ve made a few purchases on Gunbroker and have been advised to use a USPS money order. Theory is that since the MO is a Federal Issue should there be a problem we could involve the US Postal Inspectors. Fortunately I have never had to find out.

Another piece of wonderful Washington State rules is if I buy a gun and have it shipped to an FFL in Washington I have to pay 8.5% sales tax in addition to the fee for the FFL transfer. But, living as close to Idaho as I do I can ship the same gun to an FFL in Idaho and pay only the transfer fee, no tax. This is for rifles and shotguns only as Washington State residents can’t buy handguns in Idaho due to Washington requirements. Also, now that we have the additional requirements to purchase a semi-auto rifle I’m not sure if I could have one shipped to Idaho or not. Quite frankly, I feel I have enough semi’s and really don’t care to ever buy another one again here in the Republic of Washington. I did recently buy an M1A which was my first purchase of a semi-auto since the new law and I got so perturbed that I am swearing off semi’s here in WA forever. Or at least until I see one I want so bad that I’ll put up with the nonsense again.

Sorry Dave, I’m wandering off topic of your original question.

Rant off!

[dave77]

I’ve made a few purchases on Gunbroker and have been advised to use a USPS money order. Theory is that since the MO is a Federal Issue should there be a problem we could involve the US Postal Inspectors. Fortunately I have never had to find out.

Another piece of wonderful Washington State rules is if I buy a gun and have it shipped to an FFL in Washington I have to pay 8.5% sales tax in addition to the fee for the FFL transfer. But, living as close to Idaho as I do I can ship the same gun to an FFL in Idaho and pay only the transfer fee, no tax. This is for rifles and shotguns only as Washington State residents can’t buy handguns in Idaho due to Washington requirements. Also, now that we have the additional requirements to purchase a semi-auto rifle I’m not sure if I could have one shipped to Idaho or not. Quite frankly, I feel I have enough semi’s and really don’t care to ever buy another one again here in the Republic of Washington. I did recently buy an M1A which was my first purchase of a semi-auto since the new law and I got so perturbed that I am swearing off semi’s here in WA forever. Or at least until I see one I want so bad that I’ll put up with the nonsense again.

Sorry Dave, I’m wandering off topic of your original question.

Rant off!

No problem, have decided to have her get a pre-paid debit card or wait a bit and get the upgraded one for myself and then sell her mine.

In my last post I was talking about CCP's and getting pulled over, waiting periods for semi auto rifles and pistols and then a SciFi novel, can't get much more off topic than than that.

I do tend to get off topic and ramble on, think maybe it has something to do with getting old.

[dave77]

Shoot Straight has sold all six of the PX4c's they had, they didn't last long. No more to be seen online. Going to wait for Langdon Tactical to get some in and get an upgraded one for myself and then sell and transfer my PX4c to her.

[PatientWolf]

If the extra transfer fee would solve the problem, you could buy it and complete the “transfer” then immediately sell it to the final owner, completing a second transfer before ever leaving the shop, couldn’t you?

If the shop is friendly, they might even give you a break on the second transfer.

[dave77]

If the extra transfer fee would solve the problem, you could buy it and complete the “transfer” then immediately sell it to the final owner, completing a second transfer before ever leaving the shop, couldn’t you?

If the shop is friendly, they might even give you a break on the second transfer.

No, if she gets a new pistol online it's easier and safer (legally) to just have her buy it herself with a prepaid Debit card, just didn't think of it.

Hopefully I will be buying a Compact Carry PX4 for myself and transferring my current PX4c to her.