Recoil comparison

[markiver54]

My sister currently has a snubby 38 special revolver as her SD carry weapon. She wants to purchase a 9mm for easier concealment and more capacity. Just wondering, considering that both have similar barrel length, how does the recoil compare.
I have her considering the new Springfield Hellcat.
Any help is appreciated.

[GunnyGene]

My sister currently has a snubby 38 special revolver as her SD carry weapon. She wants to purchase a 9mm for easier concealment and more capacity. Just wondering, considering that both have similar barrel length, how does the recoil compare.
I have her considering the new Springfield Hellcat.
Any help is appreciated.

I gave up trying to find a Hellcat to try out about a weeks ago, and instead bought a Sig P365, which is comparable in size & weight (except for mag capacity - the Hellcat carries a couple more rounds, the Sig comes with (1) 12 rnd and (2) 10rnd mags, and will accept a 15 rnd mag). I've also shot my wifes S&W 60-10 with both .357 and .38spc. Recoil is somewhat snappier on the P365 due to it's lower weight, but not uncomfortable, and imho somewhat lower than the S&W with .38spc, although the ammo used has a lot to do with that, so she might want to try out some of the light weight copper rnds for SD. The stippling on the grips of the Sig are a little rough on the hand, but some light sanding takes care of that. It does conceal well even with the 12rnd mag. Racking the slide might be difficult for her with either the Sig or the Hellcat, as with all microcompacts. One other thing is that many of the semi's don't have a manual safety if that's a concern. Mine doesn't although it can be retrofitted for it with a kit.

Functionally, it performed very well thru approx 100rnds of cheap 124gr range ammo and Hornady 135 grn Critical Duty. No issues whatever. Trigger weight is about 6lbs, does not have excessive slack, and breaks pretty clean and smooth. It will be my new EDC to replace my Ruger 9e. I'll be doing a little polishing to tweak it & I plan on getting the flat face trigger (factory drop in replacement) for it at some point. Factory night sights are not great, but are acceptable. The included kydex holster is a piece of crap, so plan on buying a new holster also, if you consider the Sig.

Here's a pic of the Sig I picked up this past Sat. $529 plus tax, about the same price as the Hellcat.



ETA: As always, it's 99% about comparing tradeoffs when considering a new SD gun. Also, no matter what semi auto she gets, I'd strongly recommend buying a Uplula magazine loader for it.

[markiver54]

Thank you Gunny for your valuable input.
I did already mention a mag loader to her and we'll look into that. Called my favorite gun store yesterday, and they DO have a Hellcat in stock and are holding it for me until Saturday. They are about an hour away so gonna try to get older Sis up there before then.
I saw one on Cheaper Than Dirt for $539.00 but my GS quoted $509.00. It's considerably more for the desert color like yours.
The black is fine with her. I thought that was a pretty good price though. Have not paid a dime yet, even for them to hold it for me. She sure likes the 13 + 1 capacity over the six shooter. Hopefully racking the slide will not be an issue.
Once again, thanks Gunny!
BTW, that Sig is nice! ☺ congrats.

[GunnyGene]

Thank you Gunny for your valuable input.
I did already mention a mag loader to her and we'll look into that. Called my favorite gun store yesterday, and they DO have a Hellcat in stock and are holding it for me until Saturday. They are about an hour away so gonna try to get older Sis up there before then.
I saw one on Cheaper Than Dirt for $539.00 but my GS quoted $509.00. It's considerably more for the desert color like yours.
The black is fine with her. I thought that was a pretty good price though. Have not paid a dime yet, even for them to hold it for me. She sure likes the 13 + 1 capacity over the six shooter. Hopefully racking the slide will not be an issue.
Once again, thanks Gunny!
BTW, that Sig is nice! ☺ congrats.

Anytime. I don't much care about the color scheme on guns, as long as its not PINK or some other radical departure. FDE is fine, so is black, brown, etc. . Shiny stuff doesn't belong on working guns either, imho.

One other thing that is often ignored is ease of assembly/disassembly/maintenance. The Sig excels at this chore, and in fact you can remove the entire trigger/striker module by taking out a single pin, which is a major difference from the Hellcat which is far more complicated to remove the trigger, and other frame bits and pieces

Sig:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPj1lOOtOvs

Hellcat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfjDOsUPlE4

[BigAl52]

If she has trouble with the slides the new Smith M&P EZ slides work pretty well for someone who has issues like that. Be nice if you could find a range where she could try before she buys.

[markiver54]

If she has trouble with the slides the new Smith M&P EZ slides work pretty well for someone who has issues like that. Be nice if you could find a range where she could try before she buys.

Yeah, I thought about the EZ. Maybe they'll have one of those too. Then she can compare hands on.
Ahhh, I'll be darn. She just texted me that she got the cash!
She's a tough 'ol gal at 70, course she will grow up at some point,

[GunnyGene]

If she has trouble with the slides the new Smith M&P EZ slides work pretty well for someone who has issues like that. Be nice if you could find a range where she could try before she buys.

Yeah, I thought about the EZ. Maybe they'll have one of those too. Then she can compare hands on.
Ahhh, I'll be darn. She just texted me that she got the cash!
She's a tough 'ol gal at 70, course she will grow up at some point,

You know who's tougher than an old guy with a gun? An old gal with a gat.

[markiver54]

Gunny, I watched those videos and wow! Quite a bit different take down. Don't see my sister ever doing that herself though.
It will come down to which one she likes the best. Will also show her the P365 if they have one....and the EZ.

[GunnyGene]

Gunny, I watched those videos and wow! Quite a bit different take down. Don't see my sister ever doing that herself though.
It will come down to which one she likes the best. Will also show her the P365 if they have one....and the EZ.

Sig has 4 different models of the P365, one of them is the SAS model which would make a great snag free carry gun. It doesn't have protruding sights. Check it out.



https://www.sigsauer.com/products/firea ... tols/p365/

Or you could do something like this: Ported threaded barrel with skeletonized slide, etc. I bet she'd love this.

[markiver54]

Snag free is good, however I think Personally, I would opt for faster target acquisition. I DO like the sights on that Hellcat. If it were mine, I would probably go with the light as well.

[North Country Gal]

As for recoil between the 38 and the 9, there's a lot of overlap if we just consider the cartridges, themselves. You can buy light SD loads for both or go for the hotter stuff. As so expertly discussed, though, you have to take into account the guns themselves. I'm one of those 70 year old gals, now, so, yes, racking a slide can be an issue. It's not just the recoil spring weight, it's also the slide design, right down to the design of the cocking serrations. Interestingly, the fancy serrations designs don't work as well for me as the simple traditional mil-spec designs on my 1911s.

I can also tell you from personal experience helping some of my girl friends find a carry gun they like, you're wasting your time trying to predict what they will like and trying to choose for them. No substitute for letting them try various choices to see what works for them.

[markiver54]

As for recoil between the 38 and the 9, there's a lot of overlap if we just consider the cartridges, themselves. You can buy light SD loads for both or go for the hotter stuff. As so expertly discussed, though, you have to take into account the guns themselves. I'm one of those 70 year old gals, now, so, yes, racking a slide can be an issue. It's not just the recoil spring weight, it's also the slide design, right down to the design of the cocking serrations. Interestingly, the fancy serrations designs don't work as well for me as the simple traditional mil-spec designs on my 1911s.

I can also tell you from personal experience helping some of my girl friends find a carry gun they like, you're wasting your time trying to predict what they will like and trying to choose for them. No substitute for letting them try various choices to see what works for them.

Thanks NCG ( Joanie ) , was hoping you would chime in as well, so thank you.
Gonna take her up there Thursday to check out a couple options. Just got off the phone with her and explained the things that we will be looking at when we get to the store.
Unfortunately, they do not have a range to actually try shooting all options. Once she picks one she likes, then we will rely on some guidance at the store as to an appropriate load regarding recoil issues.
Definitely appreciate your input!!
She has never owned a semi auto, and my goal is to tutor her to the best of my ability, how it all works. Like me, she loves revolvers, but just wants more capacity. The ways of the world currently have inspired her.

[GunnyGene]

As for recoil between the 38 and the 9, there's a lot of overlap if we just consider the cartridges, themselves. You can buy light SD loads for both or go for the hotter stuff. As so expertly discussed, though, you have to take into account the guns themselves. I'm one of those 70 year old gals, now, so, yes, racking a slide can be an issue. It's not just the recoil spring weight, it's also the slide design, right down to the design of the cocking serrations. Interestingly, the fancy serrations designs don't work as well for me as the simple traditional mil-spec designs on my 1911s.

I can also tell you from personal experience helping some of my girl friends find a carry gun they like, you're wasting your time trying to predict what they will like and trying to choose for them. No substitute for letting them try various choices to see what works for them.

Thanks NCG ( Joanie ) , was hoping you would chime in as well, so thank you.
Gonna take her up there Thursday to check out a couple options. Just got off the phone with her and explained the things that we will be looking at when we get to the store.
Unfortunately, they do not have a range to actually try shooting all options. Once she picks one she likes, then we will rely on some guidance at the store as to an appropriate load regarding recoil issues.
Definitely appreciate your input!!
She has never owned a semi auto, and my goal is to tutor her to the best of my ability, how it all works. Like me, she loves revolvers, but just wants more capacity. The ways of the world currently have inspired her.

Taking a que from your last para, I ran across this article hosted on Boondocks Academy (the premier training outfit in MS), that I thought might interest you and your sister once she gets that new pistol.

https://boondocksfta.com/2019/10/automaticity/

Automaticity
By Chad Winkler | October 1, 2019

Automaticity – au·to·ma·tic·i·ty – the ability to do things without occupying the mind with the low-level details required, allowing it to become an automatic response pattern or habit. It is usually the result of learning, repetition, and practice.

Recently I have been reading a book by Karl Rehn and John Daub entitled, “Strategies and Standards for Defensive Handgun Training.” In the book, I came across the graphic below. It originates from John Hearn’s book “Straight Talk on Armed Defense” and tries to indicate the important factors of prevailing in a gunfight. As you can tell from the diagram, the most important factors are the ability to control your emotions and your level of automaticity. The other two factors on the “What You Can Control Side” are Fitness and Gear, with gear being the smallest factor. Another interesting fact in Karl and John’s book is the very low percentage of gun owners that train on a regular basis. He estimates that only about 1% of gun owners who have taken a Basic Permit class ever go on to take a more advanced class or shoot in a match. Instead, gun owners are spending their resources on purchasing new guns. According to the FBI NICS data, the number of background checks for gun purchases have tripled from 8 million in 2000 to over 26 million last year. The actual number of gun purchases is likely much higher since the 17 million Permit Holders in the United States would not have to go through a NICS background check when purchasing a gun. So, it appears as if gun owners and permit holders are investing their money in gear instead of training, the exact opposite of what the graphs suggests. Now, don’t get me wrong, I like buying new guns as much as anyone, but buying new guns and not actually training with them is probably the worst-case scenario for those serious about carrying a firearm for personal defense.

Beware of the man that only owns one gun, he probably knows how to use it. The only way to build automaticity with a particular gun is to train/practice with THAT gun. If you’re buying new and different guns on a regular basis then you are probably not going to be able to increase your automaticity with any one gun. If you have to rely on your brain to remember that the gun you are carrying today has a safety, or that you need to chamber a round before you fire, you’re already behind the “emotional control” curve. During a gunfight, your body should be able to automatically draw and fire without ever having to “think” about it. That is automaticity, and when you have reached that level in your training, then your brain is free to focus on emotional control.

Gaining Emotional Control

Once you have gained automaticity, the next step is to work on emotional control. One of the best ways to do that is through experience. In an article called Training vs. Experience, Greg Ellifritz with Active Response Training talks about some of the best ways to gain experience. He also highlights an FBI study that talks about the experience level of your potential attacker. The results of the study are staggering

“Nearly 40% of the criminal attackers in this study had received FORMAL firearms training”
“More than 80% of the criminal attackers regularly practiced with their firearms, with an average number of 23 Practice Sessions Per Year!”
“More than 40% of the criminals identified in the study had at least one gunfight experience before attacking the officer”
“25% of the attackers had been involved in more than five gunfights!”

One felon in the study had been shot in 10 different gunfights, before being killed by a homeowner during a home invasion. Do you think he had more experience and emotional control than the average gun owner? Greg does a great job in his article giving you some options to help you gain experience, which includes force-on-force training. Greg states “the best type of this training is conducted at professional shooting schools and uses tightly-scripted professional role players. It is costly, but worth the expense. You will learn more in one day of this type of training than you will learn in weeks of practicing by yourself.”

To Test Your Equipment, You Have to Stress Your Equipment

While the gear you use in a gunfight is not as important as your emotional control and automaticity, it does need to work. Simply taking your gun to a range and punching holes in paper a couple of times a year is not truly testing your gear. In order to be confident your gear will work when you need it to, you need to be stress testing that gear. That means drawing and shooting under some type of stress like a timed course of fire, shooting from retention or compromised positions. These types of drills can’t be covered in a one-day Basic Permit class, your going to have to look into at least a 2-day class where you are putting hundreds of rounds down range in a variety of drills. I can’t tell you how many times we have seen sub-par gear or heavily modified guns fail during these types of training classes or during a shooting match. In fact, almost every single nationally known trainer will tell you to bring a SPARE GUN to their class.

Are You Fit Enough?

One of the final aspects of “What You Can Control” is fitness. While fitness is definitely important in being able to survive a gunfight, it may be more important in a whole host of situations. Our friend, Dave Spaulding, does an excellent job in this video on the importance of fitness and being able to be an active participant in your own rescue. I encourage you to take a few minutes to watch it.

The bottom line is to “invest in yourself.” You will likely fair much better both physically and financially if you spend your resources on training, rather than chasing the latest, greatest gun or gadget to try and improve your shooting. Believe it or not, the money spent on training will likely guide you to the best gun for you long before you find it on your own.

[BigAl52]

While I was at my local indoor range a while back I shot a P365. I didnt like it. Its the finger pinch I get at the bottom of the trigger between it and the guard. H&K does that to me also. Buddie has 2 of them and I can shoot them pretty well but I dont like that pinch. M&P doesnt do that to me and they feel good in my hand. My EDC though is a Sig 938. Like it alot.

[GunnyGene]

While I was at my local indoor range a while back I shot a P365. I didnt like it. Its the finger pinch I get at the bottom of the trigger between it and the guard. H&K does that to me also. Buddie has 2 of them and I can shoot them pretty well but I dont like that pinch. M&P doesnt do that to me and they feel good in my hand. My EDC though is a Sig 938. Like it alot.

A replacement flat face trigger will fix that pinch - available as a drop in replacement from Sig.

[Hatchdog]

I carry a 9mm Shield from time to time and my go to ammo is the Federal Low Recoil Hydro-Skok’s. I really haven’t compared the recoil to standard 9mm but she might take a look at a low recoil type of ammo.

[markiver54]

Thank you Gunny for your post about Boondocks! Lots of good info there.

[markiver54]

I carry a 9mm Shield from time to time and my go to ammo is the Federal Low Recoil Hydro-Skok’s. I really haven’t compared the recoil to standard 9mm but she might take a look at a low recoil type of ammo.

Thanks Hatch for the reccomendation !

[North Country Gal]

While I was at my local indoor range a while back I shot a P365. I didnt like it. Its the finger pinch I get at the bottom of the trigger between it and the guard. H&K does that to me also. Buddie has 2 of them and I can shoot them pretty well but I dont like that pinch. M&P doesnt do that to me and they feel good in my hand. My EDC though is a Sig 938. Like it alot.

Plus one on the Sig 938. Great little carry gun, accurate and fun to shoot, as well.

[markiver54]

Will let you all know what she ends up with. Currently, her brain is set on the Hellcat, ( partly my fault probably ), but I'm going to insist that she handles a few and understands the differences before buying. I very much doubt she will ever purchase another. She is not a collector, by any means. Just wants to feel as safe as possible.
Thank you all for your input and opinions!! We're still scheduled to go tomorrow.