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Shooting for group size

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North Country Gal
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Shooting for group size

Post by North Country Gal » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:16 am

We took a break from some of our home projects, yesterday, and headed to the range with a variety of CZ rimfires, some with iron sights and some with scopes. Would love to report that I shot some great groups with the iron sight CZ rifles, but just not a good iron sight day for me. Not bad groups, mind you, but not my best.

My main objective was to do more shooting with my new CZ 457 Varmint MTR (match target rifle). This rifle performed, brilliantly, first time out. Could I get it to shoot like that, again, or was that first trip a fluke?
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Here's some nice groups I shot, yesterday, with the MTR, but more than that, these two groups are very informative and educational. The group on the left is my worst group of the day with the MTR and the group on the right my best group. Both shot with the same ammo, same rest and so on.
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So what can we learn from the difference between these two groups? The difference demonstrates the subtle differences in technique and skill and effort on my part. The rifle can shoot quarter-inch groups all day long (even smaller groups, actually), but I need to give my very best effort in technique to get there. Even a tiny lapse in concentration, trigger technique, how I rest the gun, shot to shot, or my follow through consistency will open up group size. The fact that this rifle is still shooting under half inch with my less than perfect effort speaks volumes for the accuracy of this rifle.

The lesson, here, for beginners, is that shaving tenths of an inch off of group size is harder than you might think. The notion that a big heavy rifle with a high power scope (18x), when shot from a rest, will pretty much shoot by itself is nonsense. To be sure, shooting from a rest for best group size is different than shooting from other positions, but it is still a skill acquired only with experience and effort.

In the same way, it's wrong to assume that putting your rifle in a sled type rest takes you, the shooter, out of the equation or that what you're getting for accuracy from a sled type rest is the rifle's best. Not so and I have proven it to myself many times. Rifles ARE sensitive, sometimes extremely sensitive, to how they are rested and dropping them in a sled rest ignores this basic fact. Every rifle is different in how it likes to be rested and if you haven't taken the time to learn how your rifle likes to be rested, you are not getting your best from the rifle.

Another lesson here is a bit more subjective, but still useful. This CZ Varmint MTR meets my personal standards for a true and genuine MOA rifle (MOA at 50 yards is basically half inch, c-c group). My "personal standards" are the subjective part. For instance, I shoot 5 shot groups, some shoot 3 shot groups and some even 10 shot groups. Some folks will call their rifle an MOA rifle if the rifle's best ever group is half inch at 50. Not me. My definition of an MOA rifle is a rifle that can shoot half inch on a regular basis, under a variety of conditions, assuming I'm doing my part. Not every time, mind you, but I should have the expectation of the rifle doing it fairly often on any given range trip.

My definition of a true MOA rifle. Match Target Rifle is right.
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Re: Shooting for group size

Post by JEBar » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:32 am

well authored report .... my position on firearms has been pretty much the same from day one .... said another way, unless it is one with a historic, family value, I will not own a firearm that isn't capable of firing better groups than I'm able to make it shoot .... applying that standard to you, sets the bar pretty dang high
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Re: Shooting for group size

Post by Old Syko » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:53 am

It's hard to explain to those new to bench shooting just how tedious it can be to do right every time. The slightest and even strangest things can make such a difference. Funny thing about MOA, we all know the correct definition yet it still means different things to different people. As in your reference to being MOA capable all the time vs part time. I need to know the equipment is always ready whether I am or not.

If you don't mind, exactly which scope do you have there?
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Re: Shooting for group size

Post by PT7 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:20 pm

The gun class was very good today....thanks. And your MTR is an impressive rifle :!:

My favorite stance. When shooting off hand, no bench rest, there is another set of factors to consider, isn't there? Some of our Henry threads have looked at that shooting, too. Simply great that there are so many options to make the shooting sports interesting, and especially fun.
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Re: Shooting for group size

Post by markiver54 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:42 pm

Those groups are to envy! :o
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North Country Gal
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Re: Shooting for group size

Post by North Country Gal » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:05 pm

Thanks, folks.

The scope is nothing special, but decent and more than adequate for this work. It is a 6-18x50 Bushnell Banner AO and it does the job. Have the same scope on another true MOA 22 rifle and it performs exactly the same.

For sure, consistency of everything, shot after shot, is the name of the game. So true that the littlest of things can work their way into the equation and spoil a group.

PT, when shooting offhand without a rest, there is a whole universe of other things to consider. Absolutely right. Offhand shooting is still alive and well in pistol shooting, thanks to the action shooting sports and I still see folks at our range shooting pistols mostly offhand. Offhand with a rifle, though? Almost never.
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Re: Shooting for group size

Post by 220 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:47 pm

You are correct in everyone having a different definition of a moa rifle.
When I really want to see what rimfire ammo will do I will shoot a full box.
10 x 5 shot groups or a mix of 5 & 10 shot groups but 50 rounds and get a average.
It is one of the reasons I dont really class any of the cheaper standard velocity ammo as being consistent moa shooters. Sure I have seen some screamer groups of 1/4"moa using it but very rarely can I get it to average moa for 50 shots.
The mid priced target ammo is where I start to see moa averages for a box, often the best groups arent as good as with the cheap ammo but the worst usually arent much bigger than the best.
Stepping up to the top target ammo will see a slight improvement over the mid priced ammo. It might be the limit of my shooting or equipment or maybe that once you are averaging under moa in a rimfire a 5-10% reduction in group size really does take ammo costing 100% more.

You really need to have confidence in your shooting ability. It is easy to disregard one or two bad groups out of 10 and say it was shooter error when in fact it may well be ammo. I used to blame myself for the one or two bad shots in 50 until I tried some of the mid and high priced target ammo and the one or two bad shots suddenly disappeared.
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Re: Shooting for group size

Post by Old Syko » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:32 pm

North Country Gal wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:05 pm
Thanks, folks.

The scope is nothing special, but decent and more than adequate for this work. It is a 6-18x50 Bushnell Banner AO and it does the job. Have the same scope on another true MOA 22 rifle and it performs exactly the same.

Thanks for the response. I thought that was what I was seeing since I have 2 of these myself and believe them to be great bang for few bucks. The 5-15x40 3200 is or was also a good buy in my opinion. A year or 2 ago Natchez offered a Weaver 6-24x40 European with 30mm tube that also makes a great scope for a rimfire bench gun. I bought one and liked it so much I immediately ordered 2 more. I don't think they are offered any more. Sometimes you don't have to break the bank to get the quality you need. If I was doing this for something more than my own enjoyment I would have no problem spending more money, and I often do anyway, but sometimes the minimal gains aren't worth the fantastic prices.
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North Country Gal
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Re: Shooting for group size

Post by North Country Gal » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:46 pm

Oh, I've been thinking of upping scope quality and also magnification (and you really do need to up quality when you increase magnification), but I try to keep things in perspective as a recreational shooter, not to mention my shooting is so varied. I've often thought about our own Ranch Roper, here, and his approach of concentrating on a few guns and getting the most out of them. I admire that, greatly, and no one does that approach, better. Unfortunately, it's just not me. Guess I'm doomed to be a jack of all trades type in my shooting. For instance, this last session was all rifles and I'm already getting the itch to get to my revolver shooting. The Banner scope does a nice job for as often as I'll shoot the MTR. Not like I'm shooting it on every outing.
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Re: Shooting for group size

Post by Old Syko » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:14 pm

North Country Gal wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:46 pm
Oh, I've been thinking of upping scope quality and also magnification (and you really do need to up quality when you increase magnification), but I try to keep things in perspective as a recreational shooter, not to mention my shooting is so varied. I've often thought about our own Ranch Roper, here, and his approach of concentrating on a few guns and getting the most out of them. I admire that, greatly, and no one does that approach, better. Unfortunately, it's just not me. Guess I'm doomed to be a jack of all trades type in my shooting. For instance, this last session was all rifles and I'm already getting the itch to get to my revolver shooting. The Banner scope does a nice job for as often as I'll shoot the MTR. Not like I'm shooting it on every outing.
I totally agree but I gotta tell ya, I get a bigger kick out of buying the less expensive stuff and feeling like I got more than I paid for than I do out of some of the big money glass I've bought and wondered what I was actually paying for, if you know what I mean.

BTW for me, tomorrow is carry gun practice day and Monday morning is archery. Wednesday I'm supposed to meet a young man at his range to work with him on his rimfire bench gun and exercise a couple of my own. Can't seem to stay focused on just one thing.
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