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Which Steel ?

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PT7
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Re: Which Steel ?

Postby PT7 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:12 pm

Just read your notes from this morning. I've been out and about today.....treated myself to a rare restaurant breakfast that I didn't fix myself! Then got an early start while not yet blistering hot and went to the shooting range in KCKS. Had to have another session with my 1873 Cattleman revolver. OK, to your blade comments.

Sharpening S30V.
I also read the Buck info that this steel is a challenge to sharpen, and they have the service. WIth the memorial knife (Buck 110) I built at the Buck Custom Shop, I'll not be using it to cut anything. It is a wall display hanging on the wood knife "rack" I put together. So no need to sharpen that puppy. But my next Buck cutlery for the kitchen will be a 119 with the S30V steel. I'll use Buck service to sharpen it whenever needed. No, I've not done any research yet on sharpeners that would work well for this steel.

Grooves option.

I've read what the purpose for these are, but didn't put them on my custom 110. I like the looks w/o them. BTW, they are called "fullers" or "cannelure." The reason is that I like the looks w/o them. I read what you learned from Buck about fullers. However, as almost invariably happens, there are other definitions out there that say no to fullers being a "blood groove." A knifemaker named Jay Fisher has a section on his web site (jayfisher.com) with 12 different displays of knife anatomy. He writes about the fuller, and this is a portion of that commentary:

The center axis of the blade has a milled fuller or cannelure. The fuller or cannelure allows a reduced central weight in the thickest area of the spine without sacrificing strength. In essence, it forms an "I" beam running down the center of the blade, and limits lateral flexion. You will see this feature more on longer, larger blades, like sword blades.

It is not a blood groove. The term blood groove is an American colloquialism and means nothing. We've all heard that the groove is made to allow blood to flow in a deep cut, but this is simply an uneducated attempt at describing the fuller. The fuller is named for the special hammer and anvil tool set (a fuller) used by a blacksmith to produce the groove that spreads hot iron. In my book I go into greater detail about this mysterious and misunderstood groove in a blade.


Who knows? Maybe this could be a reason you've had no issues with a 110 sans fuller. I don't know, but always like to read the lit on knife construction and materials. It is a fascinating area to me. One last comment on Mr. Fisher's info. Note his last sentence calling a fuller "mysterious." Wonder why he said that?

Tangent -- a traditional hand-forged knife made with a single fuller.
I've been seriously looking at a hand-made knife offered by a Canadian forger, which has a fuller as a very noticeable and primary component of the blade. But the fuller is only on one side of the blade! It is a Yakut knife, Traditional Siberian Evenki, hand-forged with the handle crafted in maple & burl & antler. It carries a 6" blade forged out of SAE52100 high carbon steel. This steel has unique qualities as well; but another story. Anyway, today these knives are still hand-made by skilled forgers and used in many countries. I've never seen a knife quite like this. On the site I've found that offers different styles of Yakut knives, it summarizes the uniqueness of the blade structure: "A Yakut knife blade has a concave/convex geometry with a hand-forged or machined fuller on one side." If you looked at this blade from above the spine downward, as a right-handed person my knife would have a flat side with the fuller on the right, and a concave side on the left w/o a fuller. Opposite design for a left-handed person. Interesting, and enough said. ;) I do go off on tangents, :shock: but knives are a lot of fun to research and look at what's out there. Take care.
PT7

JEBar wrote:UPDATE :

I just contacted Buck and asked about the grooves .... their response ===> "Its a blood groove. So when you are skinning an animal, the blade doesnt suction cup." .... when I mentioned that I've used a Buck 110 folding hunter since the second year they were in production and have never had that problem .... their response ===> "We've never had it reported with a 110" .... that leads me to believe they have had a sufficient number of complaints for them to offer it as an option



JEBar wrote:
PT7 wrote:From some of the knife evaluations and guides on Blade Forums, I thought I'd "cut out" a couple of portions as relates to your knife, JEBar.

Bottom line if I were to make a steel choice for food prep. Connecting the dots and learning that Buck uses this steel (as an option) in their knives, I'd go with the S30V steel. What I especially like is that it has high "corrosion resistance," which is an important factor in my book. The extra cost to me of this steel would be worth it.

A year ago I didn't know enough about S30V steel to agree or disagree with his assessment. Since then, I've come to learn he is spot-on. I have a Buck 119 fixed-blade made with 420HC steel, and use it mostly in the kitchen for food prep. If I need to replace it, or add another 119 to my kitchen tools, I will order one through Buck's Custom Shop made with S30V. A Buck 119 with this premium steel would be the ultimate kitchen tool for me!

PT7



S30V steel is new to me .... appreciate the work you did in providing good info .... I noted in Buck's literature that they say S30V can be difficult to sharpen and that they offer a sharpening service .... my guess is, the difficulty comes from it being a very hard steel ....

Questions :

1 .... any clue as to the type(s) of sharpeners required to maintain an edge on an S30V blade

2 .... at this link ===> https://www.buckknives.com/custom-knife/customizable-119-special-knife/CKS119/ <=== they show options for S30V and other metal blades, with and without "Grooves" .... are the only there for looks ??? .... what, if any, practical function to Grooves provide ....
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Re: Which Steel ?

Postby JEBar » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:54 pm

informational response appreciated .... I'd always heard of them as fullers, I used the term groove because that's what Buck uses .... I'm still unsure if I like the looks more with our without them .... if I ever have a S30V I'll make every effort to sharpen it myself .... before I would send it back to be sharpened, I'd have to prove to myself that I can't handle it .... I'm also unsure if I'd want the Fold Over or open top sheath .... the Fold Over is more traditional
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Re: Which Steel ?

Postby JEBar » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:59 pm

PT7 wrote:But my next Buck cutlery for the kitchen will be a 119 with the S30V steel. I'll use Buck service to sharpen it whenever needed. No, I've not done any research yet on sharpeners that would work well for this steel.



not to dangle temptation in front of your eyes but take a look at the link below :

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZQEYM9/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


for $125 I can already tell I'm not going to be able to resist putting one on order .... they also have a very similar one for $74
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PT7
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Re: Which Steel ?

Postby PT7 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:37 pm

Nuts. To "dangle temptation" is a well-honed practice on this Forum!
And this one has red micarta handles vs. the black phenolic = an extra dangle.

Let me know how you like this 119 when yours arrives. ;)

Aside: Copper & Clad handles a number of knife brands, but highly focuses on Buck knives.


JEBar wrote:not to dangle temptation in front of your eyes but take a look at the link below :
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZQEYM9/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
for $125 I can already tell I'm not going to be able to resist putting one on order .... they also have a very similar one for $74
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~~Henry H001TLP Small Game Carbine .22LR
~~Henry H012MR Big Boy Steel Carbine .357 Magnum
~~Uberti 1874 Russian No. 3 Top-Break .45LC 6.5"
~~~A Pair of Revolvers -- Stainless & Blued



A quiet place to rest awhile...Psalm 46:10

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Re: Which Steel ?

Postby JEBar » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:52 pm

will do, its supposed to arrive on Monday .. 8-)
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Re: Which Steel ?

Postby clovishound » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:33 am

PT7 wrote:Sharpening S30V.
I also read the Buck info that this steel is a challenge to sharpen, and they have the service. WIth the memorial knife (Buck 110) I built at the Buck Custom Shop, I'll not be using it to cut anything. It is a wall display hanging on the wood knife "rack" I put together. So no need to sharpen that puppy. But my next Buck cutlery for the kitchen will be a 119 with the S30V steel. I'll use Buck service to sharpen it whenever needed. No, I've not done any research yet on sharpeners that would work well for this steel.

S30V steel is new to me .... appreciate the work you did in providing good info .... I noted in Buck's literature that they say S30V can be difficult to sharpen and that they offer a sharpening service .... my guess is, the difficulty comes from it being a very hard steel ....

Questions :

1 .... any clue as to the type(s) of sharpeners required to maintain an edge on an S30V blade

....


I have no experience with s30V steel, but I would imagine that a diamond plate would put a nice edge on any knife made with this steel. Heck, I have used diamond plates to refresh an edge on HSS, and have heard from folks who use them to resharpen carbide tools.

Having said that, I don't think I would want a blade that was extremely difficult to sharpen, and would never buy a blade that I had to send off for sharpening. The only question in my mind is just how difficult it really is to put an edge on it. I have a couple of A2 cryo plane irons that are supposed to be difficult to sharpen. I find that it does take longer, and they don't produce quite as sharp an edge (negligibly so), but they do hold an edge much longer than normal HCS. I like the A2 irons, although they are a bit pricey.
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Re: Which Steel ?

Postby JEBar » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:53 pm

I agree with clovishound that a diamond plate should put a nice edge on any knife with a blade made from steel .... until I started researching S30V, I'd never heard of D2 steel .... Googled It and found this article in which its clear that, when it comes to making a blade, both D2 and S30V are both highly praised ===> [url]https://knifeup.com/d2-vs-cpm-s30v-steel-which-is-better-for-knives/[/url] .... back last November I purchased a Smith's 50008 8-Inch Diamond Tri-Hone Bench Stone ===> [url]https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001I6JGL4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1[/url] .... for pictures and inf see the bottom of page 3 in this thread ===> [url]http://henryrifleforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1268&start=20[/url] .... as noted, it has proven to be an outstanding set of sharpening stones and it (along with a leather barber's strap) is what I use to sharpen my good knives .... I have a pretty high confidence that it will work well with a S30V blade .... some YouTube videos make it look like sharpening S30V blades ain't really all that bad
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Re: Which Steel ?

Postby PT7 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:25 pm

Very good article comparing D2 and S30V. Runs in a similar vein to the research info I've been reading. Your article gives it to us in more everyday language, which I liked. ;)

So, you bought the "premium" steel, and paid the "premium" price. This reviewer says "you done good," JEBar! And it's cool 8-) that your research on sharpening this tuff stuff is getting good results for you. I really hope the Buck 119 with S30V serves you excellently for years.
PT7

JEBar wrote:I agree with clovishound that a diamond plate should put a nice edge on any knife with a blade made from steel .... until I started researching S30V, I'd never heard of D2 steel .... Googled It and found this article in which its clear that, when it comes to making a blade, both D2 and S30V are both highly praised ===> [url]https://knifeup.com/d2-vs-cpm-s30v-steel-which-is-better-for-knives/[/url] .... back last November I purchased a Smith's 50008 8-Inch Diamond Tri-Hone Bench Stone ===> [url]https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001I6JGL4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1[/url] .... for pictures and inf see the bottom of page 3 in this thread ===> [url]http://henryrifleforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1268&start=20[/url] .... as noted, it has proven to be an outstanding set of sharpening stones and it (along with a leather barber's strap) is what I use to sharpen my good knives .... I have a pretty high confidence that it will work well with a S30V blade .... some YouTube videos make it look like sharpening S30V blades ain't really all that bad
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~~Henry H001TLP Small Game Carbine .22LR
~~Henry H012MR Big Boy Steel Carbine .357 Magnum
~~Uberti 1874 Russian No. 3 Top-Break .45LC 6.5"
~~~A Pair of Revolvers -- Stainless & Blued



A quiet place to rest awhile...Psalm 46:10

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Re: Which Steel ?

Postby JEBar » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:23 am

in our travels we do a great deal of outdoor cooking/grilling .... I carry a Buck 110 Folding Hunter on my belt at all times that is used only on food .... long ago my wife got used to seeing me pull it out at a steak house where their knives would have a tough time cutting warm butter .... the shape of a 119 isn't one that is usually associated with food preparation but that is what I want it for .... as a tool it will be used less often than my 110 but I'm looking forward to using it
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