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4" S&W Model 19 vs. Missouri LEO Qualification

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Hrfunk
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4" S&W Model 19 vs. Missouri LEO Qualification

Post by Hrfunk » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:33 am

Here's one for all the wheelgunners in MO!

Howard

https://youtu.be/DVwF_PdbXOE
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BrokenolMarine
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Re: 4" S&W Model 19 vs. Missouri LEO Qualification

Post by BrokenolMarine » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:56 am

Another great video, love the model 19.

Honor and Integrity.

How many other you tubers would have left up the video where they made mistakes, and claimed them with a smile on their face? When you know you are confident in your past accomplishments and don't worry about trying to impress, or attaining pefection, you can be human, make mistakes, and move on. :D

As for the MO course. I liked it. We used the B27 for our course... A good target. I like the reload drills, and wezk hand, use of cover. Nice.

Semper fi.

Look forward to the next video...
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Hrfunk
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Re: 4" S&W Model 19 vs. Missouri LEO Qualification

Post by Hrfunk » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:49 am

Thank you! I can't bring myself to fudge on these courses. I think you all deserve better than that. As to the course, I liked it. It's requires good blend of critical skills; the time limits are challenging, but realistic; and the long range stages are there to remind everyone what the sights are for.

Thanks for watching!

Howard
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PT7
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Re: 4" S&W Model 19 vs. Missouri LEO Qualification

Post by PT7 » Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:07 pm

Howard,
Really enjoyed the MO qual when challenged by that tried & true Model 19 wheel gun. It's the best in my book.

I think a really tough component of this course is the use of the failure drill (Mozambique). I've read some anecdotal history that its first-time use was from 7.5 meters, which is even tougher than the 5 yards you were required to shoot! Also read that the above-the-neck shot needs to be specifically placed to be absolutely effective. I might just make the torso shots, but almost certain would not get the final shot in target.

I continue to think your revolver could still be the go-to duty gun for LEOs. If our police officers pursued the level of skilled and accurate shooting you exhibit (due to practice-practice-practice), a .357 magnum wheel gun definitely would hold its own.

Ah, your "mistakes" were perfect. ;) Who hasn't miscounted number of rounds fired? Not a mistake, but weather and wind conditions (shivers) are a reality and what LEO can control those during a gun incident? And the last "mistake" of not getting an accurate POI within the time allotted is a moot point in my thinking, especially with the other rounds all well-placed in target.

Will be interesting to see where MO lines up against the other states' quals. Thanks for this 8-) test.
Bob
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Re: 4" S&W Model 19 vs. Missouri LEO Qualification

Post by Hrfunk » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:25 am

PT7 wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:07 pm
Howard,
Really enjoyed the MO qual when challenged by that tried & true Model 19 wheel gun. It's the best in my book.

I think a really tough component of this course is the use of the failure drill (Mozambique). I've read some anecdotal history that its first-time use was from 7.5 meters, which is even tougher than the 5 yards you were required to shoot! Also read that the above-the-neck shot needs to be specifically placed to be absolutely effective. I might just make the torso shots, but almost certain would not get the final shot in target.

I continue to think your revolver could still be the go-to duty gun for LEOs. If our police officers pursued the level of skilled and accurate shooting you exhibit (due to practice-practice-practice), a .357 magnum wheel gun definitely would hold its own.

Ah, your "mistakes" were perfect. ;) Who hasn't miscounted number of rounds fired? Not a mistake, but weather and wind conditions (shivers) are a reality and what LEO can control those during a gun incident? And the last "mistake" of not getting an accurate POI within the time allotted is a moot point in my thinking, especially with the other rounds all well-placed in target.

Will be interesting to see where MO lines up against the other states' quals. Thanks for this 8-) test.
Bob
Thanks Bob, and thanks too for all your help! This is a good course and I enjoyed shooting it with the Model 19. One thing that bothers me about the Mozambique/failure/body armor/two-to-the-body-one-to-the-head drill is the way it is typically conducted. As I understand things, the drill was originally devised as an emergency measure to stop a hostile threat that already sustained two shots to the body. That being the case, it seems there SHOULD be a pause after the first two body shots to assess their effectiveness. After that pause, if a head shot is necessary, the shooter would then deliver it. In the context of a qualification course, the instructor would say "Threat!" at which time the shooter would fire the first double-tap to the body. The shooter would then pause before firing the head shot. After a momentary (albeit, brief) pause, the instructor would either shout "Threat" or "No Threat" and the shooter would respond accordingly.

It seems to me that conducting the drill as stated above would better demonstrate the original tactic and help reinforce the idea of assessing the effectiveness of one's shots before firing more (i.e. fire discipline). The problem is, shooting the two shots to the body and following up with the head shot as quickly as possible is fun and most shooters (including me) like to see just how fast they can deliver the coup de gras. Even so, for sound training, I think it would be better to conduct the drill as I laid out.

Merry Christmas!
Howard
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Re: 4" S&W Model 19 vs. Missouri LEO Qualification

Post by PT7 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:25 am

Hrfunk wrote: Thanks Bob, and thanks too for all your help! This is a good course and I enjoyed shooting it with the Model 19.

Merry Christmas!
Howard
You're quite welcome, Howard. I learned a lot about MO LEO testing and oversight procedures when making the phone calls to find a standardized MO test. When I finally ended up talking to the state's training facility in Jeff City, I was actually fortunate to talk to the director responsible for statewide training of new officers. He smoothed everything out and quite quickly supplied the qual standards you used. Please remember that he asked for you to send him the final results after you finish the 50 states. He just might be one of your first "customers" to use your research results!

Your perspective on using the "failure drill" procedure was interesting. It was "discovered" in an actual combat situation and ended up being first incorporated in the training of LAPD LEOs. But I wonder whether or not putting your adjusted usage into practice might generate another point of litigation if used in a threat situation? Proving valid "hesitation," or lack thereof, on the third shot could be a sticky wicket. The aftermath courtroom is a tough venue.
Just some thots.

Looking forward to the remaining states' tests. Something new always seem to be waiting around the corner. ;)

Yes, Merry Christmas and "God Bless Us - Everyone."
Bob
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Re: 4" S&W Model 19 vs. Missouri LEO Qualification

Post by fortyshooter » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:12 am

That is a tough test with a wheel gun and you did well! Love that Model 19!

If you can't qualify the first time...well that's what a Remington pump 12 ga. with buck shot is for!
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